Are you actually arguing with Epochalyptik about his own deck that HE built and has owned for what ... 3 years? 4 years?

You don't need to run tons of combos when you're playing a control shell. You have all the counterspells in the world.

Deadeye + Venser is a win because last time I checked Deadeye was a 5/5 that can do a lot of damage when the opponent has like no land left.

Also even if everything goes wrong and the combo falls apart - Eternal Witness .

I think you're underestimating how robust this deck is to interference, basically.

@ChiefBell - To answer your question, no, I'm not arguing about his deck that HE built. The last thing I wanted my commnet to do was to start an internet argument. Because nobody wins with those. Please don't assume I'm trolling or arguing for the sake of it.

As for the deck's robustness, I can't comment in depth because A) I haven't versed it and B) I haven't played with it. I have played with similar styles and know their pitfalls, so was merely commenting from my own experience. And sure, I'm playnig with something 1/4 the price, so I try to factor that into my judgement.

I think that perhaps you should have phrased you points about blue sun as a question rather than statements - that way they cant be misconstrued.

valid point. I can see how it could be taken agressively. with the venser + deadeye move, I don't disagree it's awesome but without infinite mana, its hard to bounce everything a player owns (don't get me wrong, you can hit a lot, but with 3 other players that is still a lot of mana needed). Thats the case I was talking about :P

While I suppose you're technically correct in saying there's only one "true" winning combo insofar as we're talking about combos that instantaneously kill other players, you're wrong in saying that there's only one "win combo."

As ChiefBell pointed out, Venser, Shaper Savant is certainly a winning card. In the event that I have no hard win in hand, I can shut down all of my opponents and kill them if they don't scoop. That's a win.

Taking infinite turns is also a win because I'll eventually kill the other players by combat or combo. I'll never end up decking myself this way, either, because I'll draw my win sooner or later.

While it's fair to say that I rely heavily on Deadeye Navigator and Palinchron (as individual cards and together as a combo), the deck has proven itself strong enough to overcome the major issues inherent with a centralized approach. While it would certainly be nice to diversify a bit, diversification means sacrificing some of the other elements of the deck. The balance right now is volatile, but it holds. Too few counterspells or too little ramp means I'll never defend or reach my win condition.

Additionally, the backup win conditions are specifically designed to be web-like. Most of the combos share pieces so I can transition to another combo by replacing any missing pieces. Furthermore, the pieces were chosen for their ability to function as standalone cards. That means I can still use them outside of combos, so they aren't dead draws.

I know you are very busy and I appreciate greatly the time you set aside to answer these questions. I do have a request that you update the deck list to reflect the recent changes you have made. Feel free to ignore this request if it is too time intensive as you have already contributed so much.

I'll go through the decklist later today. If I don't do it now, I probably won't bother with it for a long while.

Which list is more updated, The MTGS or this one?

You may or may not have considered it already, but I think Cryptic Command would be a valuable utility spell, allowing you to counter a combo piece or gain tempo against an aggressive deck (Geist of Saint Traft comes to mind, but there are definitely others).

I also have a couple of questions about the uses of certain cards in your deck. What artifacts and enchantments is Nature's Claim there to deal with? What are the activated and triggered abilities that make Voidslime the choice over Dissipate ?

3 u can be a pain to get in a three color deck. It used to be in the deck (read 7th update down). Also, Voidslime counters combos before they reach the field and can counter opposing Palinchron untap-esque abilites, Venser, Shaper Savant , even Snapcaster Mage .

@imarockyou: This one is slightly more updated, although the MTGS one goes into much greater depth.

@thispersonisagenius: I cut Cryptic Command a while ago because it's so mana intensive. It's a good spell. It's a really good spell. It just hasn't been practical in the situations this deck often encounters.

Regarding Nature's Claim , it's a one-drop answer to many valuable artifacts like Sol Ring , Mana Vault , etc., and it doesn't have a relevant downside.

Regarding Voidslime , it stops almost any combo or control effect from resolving. Many combos are based on abilities. For example, this deck can stop counterspells by using Boseiju, Who Shelters All to cast Tooth and Nail , but Voidslime would be able to interfere with the ability-based combo. I don't like that it's a GUU spell, but it's the best at what it does.

Thank you for answering me, Trying to build this deck (hope fetches get reprint) Why dont you play Lake of the dead?

Lake of the Dead can't be fetched, and it requires me to sacrifice a Swamp in order to get it onto the battlefield. I only play five Swamps total, and four of them are dual lands. Those aren't the kinds of lands I want to be sacrificing for something like this, especially when you consider I lose tempo unless I sacrifice another Swamp to activate the last ability.

On the note of fetching land, what're your feelings on Crop Rotation ? At worst its a land fixer, but you can dig for things like Strip Mine or Homeward Path at instant speed. I like it with Bojuka Bog personally (I know you're not running that one due to the tappedness of it) but even still, you have a lot of utility lands. Thoughts?

Can you make a 1v1 version of this deck, i doubt you'll have to change much, but i fully understand if u can't.

@imarockyou If you're referring to French EDH/Duel Commander, the big problem is that you lose the best ramp, and move into a format that's faster than multiplayer. You lose access to Sol Ring , Mana Vault , Mana Crypt , Sensei's Divining Top , Vampiric Tutor , Crucible of Worlds , Strip Mine , Ancient Tomb , Mana Drain , and Necropotence . This deck gets a lot weaker without those cards, and 1v1 is a lot faster. More hand disruption, more counter-heavy decks, and more mono red decks that use LOTS of land destruction.

@NotSoLuckyLydia, to be fair, 1v1 is a much slower format. I mean, midrange is an actual competitive archetype, which demonstrates exactly how fair the format is.

Midrange in 1v1 is the same as midrange in modern and legacy. 15 discard spells, 15 kill spells, and a bunch of hyperefficient creatures. Or, in the case of marath, a bunch of absurdly good creatures. Every deck that isn't combo is trying to stop combo, while combo is trying to go off turn four. Combo/control decks aren't as good in that format as they are in multiplayer, because you don't have the busted ramp spells to make it as good.

I agree that combo control isn't amazing in the format, but even so, its a pretty slow format, with the critical turn being about 5, whereas with modern its 3-4 and legacy its 2-3. It's often slower than standard. Also, the vast majority of the meta isn't combo, as the only true combos that are viable are reanimator and animar.

Also Elfball, (With Marath or Ezuri), Doomsday, Karador, Mimeoplasm Infect, Prossh, and Enchantress. I'm not saying that combo is dominant. I'm saying that if you can't beat the combo decks, you can't compete in the format. Though I don't think this is the right place to talk about that.

Elfball (according to many of its pioneers in the format) isn't a true combo deck, doomsday is pretty niche, enchantress is (sadly) noncompetitive, karador is more of a value midrange deck than a combo deck, Mimeo infect is niche, prossh is another beatdown or control deck with combo engame. But I agree let's not discuss here, or anywhere since I'm tired.

At my locals you can play in 1v1 tournaments but they don't use the french rules, but me asking you to make a whole different list is a bit selfish. I just want a way to go back and forth in and out of the tournament

@enpc: Some people like Crop Rotation . I think it's unnecessary because it doesn't actually ramp, and it requires the sacrifice as an additional cost to cast. If I depended more heavily on my special lands, I could see it being worth testing.

@imarockyou: It depends on the level of competition. 1v1, especially French EDH, is a completely different beast. The meta is faster than this deck can consistently survive, and French rules ban a lot of the heavy early-game ramp power on which this deck relies. Overall, the deck is a little too slow to put up the same kinds of results in 1v1. That's not to say it can't be modified for that kind of game; rather, it just won't be as effective against the best 1v1 decks.

Consider aggressive control decks like Zur the Enchanter , which stop you early in the game by using generals that facilitate investment in control.

Would Courser of Kruphix work? With the ramp and fetches gaining 2 life or is is to slow?