I see. That's my problem with Omnath as well, bounce wipes to be specific. I was looking into this so I look that bad of a threat in my meta, bec Omnath usually gets a lot of hate.

The problem is I don't have the pieces like Lotus Cobra, Crucible of Worlds, the big cards, and lands to make it as effective as possible. And you're right, the combo falls apart without the pieces, it just returns to the usual Gruul stompy deck.

I figured if I'm gonna be a stompy Gruul, I'll just stick with Omnath for now. I do appreciate your insights, bec if it wasn't for it, I would've just made a not so effective Mina and Denn stomp deck. I do hope more people in your LGS start playing EDH though! Would love to see how it works more on multiplayer, this would make a fun story.

pqlyr Bounce wipes actually arent a huge issue for me, my curve is low enough I can rebuild rather fast. Sending stuff to the yard hurts though.

And yeah, as I see it stompy versus combo is kind of the difference between other gruul commanders and Mina. My brother calls my Mina deck the bluest non-blue deck he's ever seen (he's been into mtg for longer than I have). I could see a budget landfall tribal stompy version of Mina doing quite well in a more casual meta though.

The few times I have done multiplayer its done well enough. The best was taking a table that had Oloro, Maelstrom Wanderer, and atarka. I've lost to Selvala explorer + Arcum ffa (though I lose to the Arcum 1v1 regularly anyway), Gitrog 1v1, and Chain Veil Teferi 1v1 pretty easily though. However, all of those games were towards the end of last year and I've made significant changes to the deck since then (most notably Cradle was a recent-ish inclusion), so I would love to see how the deck performs in multiplayer these days. Its just a matter of making it happen.

Hey there,

Cool to see a completely different take on Mina and Denn. Inspiring to see a combo-oriented version!

There are a few things that I noticed when browsing your list. Perhaps there are some thoughts there that are helpful to you.

• You run quite a low amount of cards that fetch you multiple lands from the library. I wonder if you get enough lands consistently to get the deck started or make use of mina and denn's ability.
• Also, your land count seems quite low, especially for a land deck, and also considering 2 of your lands don't generate mana.
• I noticed that you run some 2-color producing lands (Fire-Lit thicket and grove), while you are only running 2 out of a possible 4 dual lands. That's 2 more potential mountains you miss for Valakut synergy. Vesuva can also be amazing with valakut, especially when you scapeshift while valakut is already in play.
• I would cut evolving wilds and terramorphic expanse for normal fetches, Blighted Woodland, or even Mountain Valley as that can also get duals.
• Other lands I hoped to find but were missing are: Ghost Town, Maze of Ith, Homeward Path, and Wasteland.

Have a look at my list if you are interested. Curious to hear your view on it!

Greetings,

Beebles

Hello Beebles!

Thanks for checking out my list!

• By running pretty much all of the non basic tutors (though I do want to swap out Realms Uncharted for an Hour of Promise so I'm not giving any choice to an opponent), grabbing Cradle isnt hard. From there mana isnt a huge issue unless wraths are a thing, which in my typically 1v1 meta isnt really. In multiplayer I could probably swap some of the artifact hate out (relying on the other 2 players to help on that front), to include some of the heavier hitting ramp spells.
• Kinda the same. Since my combos unfortunately need a lot of slots, I've had to cut somewhere. 37 lands is still plenty. Getting screwed doesnt not happen, but its not frequent. At least from my experience. Maybe variance will rear its head and I'll get my comeuppance with a long streak of being screwed.
• I do plan on getting a Taiga in the near-ish future, funds are a thing at the moment though. This is my actual paper list, one of the big reasons why I havent posted it to that tapped out tier list as an example to bump them up to tier 3. I understand the combo is janky and too slow for high end play, but from my experience the tier 4 description that starts with "weak" doesnt apply either. If cedh fast combo decks are defined as turns 3-5 wins, this deck is easily in the 5-7, sometimes 8 range. Thats not weak, its just not the strongest either. On the times I have done multiplayer the deck has done surprisingly well even at tier 2 tables (even before I got my cradle), but I also understand variance from meta to meta is a thing so I'm not aiming exceptionally high on that front. 3 feels right, but again this deck isnt technically fully optimized.
• Vesuva is in the side board, and I have used it. It does find a place in the deck, right now the Stage is doing a bang up job for me though.
• Yes, as explained in one of my sections the wilds and expanse are place holders for the big daddy fetches. Again, funds.
• Ghost Town... I see that as using Gruul Turf's slot as it bounces itself, even though you run both (you run more lands in general). But the turf generates more mana and its colored, so imo its better. I'd need to playtest to change my mind on that. Maze of Ith... my typically 1v1 meta is against another combo deck, Arcum. Arcum doesnt attack, so thats probably maybe board material and meta dependent. Homeward Path is nice though. Worth considering if I get into more multiplayer games against more control decks or that surprise blowout in red. Wasteland... I have Strip Mine, currently dont feel like I need the redundancy. I feel a lot of these may be meta considerations to be honest.

Looking at your list, your average cmc is much higher. That may be where your mana concerns for my deck come from. It may not seem like much, but the difference between 4.1 and 2.71 is absolutely monstrous; even at the 3.2 my deck once was at I felt it was way too slow, and even though Hour of Promise is better than Realms Uncharted part of me really loathes the idea of increasing my average cmc by even that small amount.

You also seem to have gone for a much stronger land destruction package, presumably to slow everyone else down so your average cmc isnt as big a hurdle. I've thought about going that route too, but decided to make the janky combo as good as it could be. I just dont have the space to do a land destruction/control package proper imo.

Again, thanks for stopping by!

Mennenth

Beebles

... I cant believe I didnt see it earlier. I guess "attacking creature" threw me off the same way Mina and Denns "trample" throws off a lot of other people. Maze of Ith is gonna find a slot in the deck, the combo potential is real. Its a monster 6 card combo, but this deck doesnt really have an issue with that considering a lot of the other pieces are used in other combo's. Its just another vector to victory. Have any suggestions for what to cut?

Actually I know where I may cut. I've wanted Staff of Dom for a while now for the redundant creature untap with Mantle. The overlap with Senseis Top is just enough that to me it makes the most sense that Staff replaces Top for this. I admit Top has functionality staff doesnt, but in the combo both are used to draw the deck and its easier to do that with staff (just need infinite mana, not infi mana + rings).

Staff is arguably better than the Mantle for the creature untap. 1 extra mana to sustain it, but doesnt rely on the sorcery speed equip cost. In that light, Maze is also a creature untapper. I could swap out the mantle for the Maze to retain the redundant creature untapping, not hurt my mana base, and actually lowers my curve slightly (top -> staff alone would have been +2 total mana, going mantle -> maze would be -3, for a net of -1... not a huge impact on my curve but also lessens the +2 pain of going realms -> hour of promise).

Aha! It took me while to see what you saw as well, but I now understand (I actually did not intent to recommend maze of ith as a potential combo piece, but hey, glad it made you figure that out :)).

Thanks btw for your feedback on my list. You're right about the average cmc being a factor. Also, our strategies are very different, leading to different ramp needs indeed. For LD I just included wasteland and strip mine for the sheer value they can provide with all the land recursion I'm running (with the benefit of getting more landfall loops). But also because of my meta, which is filled with problematic lands that just need to die asap.

For cuts to make room for the maze I would have a hard time to provide guidance, as your version has a very different playstyle, and I'm not that well versed in the function each of your cards have to serve. Having said that, when looking at your selection, Exploration would be on my watchlist to cut, as it might not be a necessary card for your strategy (useful, but not necessary).

Cutting mantle could be an option, but relying on the combat step for your combo gives your opponents another avenue to disrupt it (for example with "remove it from combat" effects). Might not hurt to keep mantle and just to include maze of ith anyway, as it is a strong standalone card, and cut something else instead.

Good luck with making the decision, and thanks for your time!

Greetings,

Beebles

Yep! Attack with Sakura-Tribe Scout, tap Maze of Ith to untap scout, tap scout to drop Sunscorched Desert, simultaneously triggering Stone-Seeder Hierophant and Cloudstone Curio, tap hierophant in response to her own trigger to untap maze before she untaps from the trigger and bounce literally any other land, repeat at untapping scout with the maze because its still technically an attacking creature even though it will neither deal or receive damage. Could technically be done with any two lands for infinite mana during the combat step * , but the method with the desert is much more direct and generates infinite mana anyways. For just infinite mana could also use the Magus of the Candelabra with big mana lands or Krosan Restorer at threshold * ...

*the goal of just infinite mana would probably be to kessig up other attackers, or to pump up the avenger army, or if the geopede was still in the deck proper...

The deck does have other more efficient infinite combo's by a card or two, so this wouldnt be a primary way to win. It would be a happy accident, and in the mean time the maze could protect from voltron commanders in a similar fashion that Glacial Chasm does. But the chasm also stops creature swarm or fireballs/laser beams so I'm not too sure I'd want to swap there. Perhaps it would be a meta consideration card. Sideboard worthy at the very least (instead of just a maybe), but given its a single card that lets me assemble my engine another way I do want to find a place for it in the deck proper.

Interesting deck and I love to see a bit different Gruul deck. Incidentally the most successful in the colours I've run is an Omnath deck but I'd love to build a Mina & Denn too and will definitely come back to your list for pointers. Gaea's Cradle makes it unbuildable as-is, unfortunately, but could do as-good-as-possible version with the "IKEA Cradle" as you called it.

Outstanding description/primer too, excellent job overall! +1

Velkaarn

Hey, glad you like it and thanks! You could also try Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx as a budget alternative. I'm not sure exactly how good it would be as you need a much beefier board state to go off with it, but its worth a try if you really want to try a budget combo build.

It’s been a while since your last update there’s been some pretty interesting new cards, what do you think? Dryad of the Ilysian Grove,Field of the Dead,Finale of Devastation,Nylea's Intervention,Force of Vigor,Veil of Summer,Sheltered Thicket,Blast Zone,hour or promise

ThaneGarrus

Hey man, thanks for the suggestions! Sorry for taking so long to respond, I sort of explain why in the update I posted for this deck.

I like a LOT of those cards and will be considering several of them for sure.

Great to hear you're back Mennenth! Looking forward to what you'll do to the list :). I'm also very excited for the new Zendikar set. Can't wait to see what else is in store for us.

Beebles

Hey, thanks for welcoming me back!

I'm currently looking through your Mina and Denn list again to see what all you have done, to see if I can adapt some ideas to my list.

I find it interesting (in a good way) that you have neglected some cards because of the target they paint on you. I totally get that mentality, and may try to follow suit in some ways. I may still hold on to Nissa though, and maybe even add some other lands matter walkers, cause I'm thinking that the Evolution Sage may enable them to be stupid explosive when played right.

The problem is still as you mentioned though; taking full advantage of that explosion as possible within a turn or two. Its been a while, but from my experience with my build is that my wins were total blow outs and my losses were because I was literally a turn too slow.

Maybe I'll see about changing up my strategy a bit to even that out a bit, but for now I'm still pondering various ways to bolster my win condition with diversity to make it harder to stop even if a target is on my head.

Cool that you looked at my list for inspiration! I can totally get behind Evolution Sage. I also really like the card. In the end I did no include it as it probably shines more in a proliferate-centered deck than a landfall-centered one. Still, trying out different things never hurts. And having different versions for one deck is a fun way to keep things interesting in your playgroup. So I say: go for it ;).