Dreno33....what do you think about the Nylea's Presence vs. the Abundant Growth discussion...

Now that you've put up the challange; I want to make sure I have the best cards in!

I already added the two Lightning Greaves ....but I've put up Nylea's Presence over Abundant Growth without having tested it. I love the idea on paper (interaction with Arbor Elf and Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is crazy; but it does change the "cycling" nature of the card....

I best get my best sideboard up! I'm excited for the match-up! Let me know how it goes.

i feel its a REALLY COOL interaction and can definitely be a benefit in many games, but I also feel it is unnecessary and find it a bit of a threat early game aggro. as you said, it impedes the cycling which is, after all, the fundamental backbone to your entire deck's success. idk man, play test it quickly before the match. lmao

I agree that it is SUCH a cool idea deep_shadow thought of it and it seems like when it happens it will be huge....I just wasn't sure if it was worth the extra 1-mana (as abundant growth is really used to cycle and add 1-devotion in most cases). Since I haven't tested it more than a few games; I'll go back to the Abundant Growth 's for the dual thingy...

Do I have to do anything for that?

you will be play testing your own deck, for sure. I understand your deck relatively okay, but not the SB AT ALL. I'd feel best if you played him yourself. plus it'll be cool to see curd in action!

Haha....that's because the sideboard is currently CRAP outside of a few good control beaters and random "fillers". I won't put anything in it directly effecting the match; but I will solidify it prior to the match.

I think we should play the decks as is. No subbing or changing out now to counter. But i think that you should run Nylea's Presence would benefit you more than being able to drop it for one less mana.

No no. I won't change the sideboard if you want it to be the same; but I can promise you my intent was not to add any card that would effect our specific matchup (as the sideboard is geared toward the current modern meta...and although your deck is just as good if not better than many of them; it wouldn't be fair to add anything that would effect the match). I tried to make that clear to Dreno33; but I wasn't clear enough. I apologize. I just wanted those watching to have the best deck list possible if they tried the deck against their modern meta. It's no big deal. It can stay as-is until after the match and I'll make a note about any sideboard updates after.

Thank you for your thoughts on Nylea's Presence as well. I'm testing it now to see if it pays off in more games than ones where it hurts to pay the extra mana. I will keep the Abundant Growth 's in regardless of whether it's the best interaction ever or not until after our match though (just to be fair). I need time to test it anyways; and I don't want to add any "new" cards just so people see what the original intent was (the cycling thing).

I screen-shot both of our decks so no one can claim we changed the after this evening; and I'm not touching the board. I hope this helps. Let me know how this it's coming along. They seem pretty darn smart (and I think they can get the tech together). I'll just make sure to be as available as possible. Get some rest! I'm sorry to write so late. I know you have work. Talk to you tomorrow afternoon/evening.

What fun!

How did your two decks fare against each other? Just curious. I was playtesting both of them, and I really think that Cyclonic Rift , even though there is an anti-synergy with Genesis Wave , would totally hose an elf mirror matchup, or any deck that runs creatures for that matter. A turn 3 one-sided board wipe at the end of the opponent's turn is a win condition that basically trumps anything they may have on the field. If elf devotion was having trouble with elf beatdown, you might have a sideboard solution with that card.

deep_shadow....I would say that the main-board matchup is 60/40 in his favor to start (and more like 70/30 if you've just picked up both decks :). There was a similar build I had tested against for a while (I'll post the link here in a few); but his version is stronger against my deck.

They are quite different decks. In my opinion; his deck has more raw power and consistency where my deck has a little more resiliency. His deck deck is a little more fragile disruption; but can also do more damage more quickly on average.

You are right that Cyclonic Rift is amazing in the board. I've actually been testing it since you suggested it last (and its great). I was asked not to change the sideboard until after the match; but you are right that it works very well. (And will be in the updated sideboard).

I am getting some crazy turn 4 kills with my druid deck now. I added Voyaging Satyr and Kamahl, Fist of Krosa and with Lightning Greaves you can outright kill an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn with targeted direct damage from Masticore after you dump your entire library out on the board. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx might just be the most broken land since Tolarian Academy .

I know! I sooooo badly wanted to add Kamahl, Fist of Krosa to this deck! For some reason I thought it was modern legal at first...one set away!! It's literally perfect (because he does more than Ezuri, Renegade Leader and is a Druid!

I'm so excited to hear your deck is going great! I love what you've done with it! I need to make a legacy version of this deck (with Gaea's Cradle , Kamahl, etc.)...but let's be honest....its tough to do better than legacy elves already has! I think I'll make it would be fun to put it together anyways...but you've pretty much already done it!

And yes, Lightning Greaves is nuts when it work! Being able to move it around during your main phase (at sorcery speed of course) can be rely important. And you always have an attacker :)

Can you link your deck here? I'd love others to see it.

sure :)

deep_shadow's Legacy Druids

Great! Thanks deep_shadow.

And I just thought...the 60/40 thing I mentioned was based mostly on my prior testing against "Elf Beatdown" decks was against There is No Kill Like Overkill: Elves. It is very similar to Vito's deck; but Vito also got the Nettle Sentinel / Heritage Druid combo in there by removing the Cavern of Souls . (And that's a very powerful combo) and replaces Arbor Elf with Elvish Visionary for card draw. Both I believe are upgrades in terms of playing against my deck; and Vito's deck is spectacular! Don't get me wrong, There is No Kill Like Overkill: Elves is amazing too (and BorosPlayer built a great deck that's positioned well even against decks like Control, Twin, Scapeshift, etc. (that rely on early counter/disruption) if he gets am early Cavern of Souls )...this puts him I'm a great place against the current Modern Meta....one on one, however, I think Vito's Elf Beatdown **Undefeated 1v1** is slightly stronger against my deck by a tiny margin. I would assume its probably still pretty close to a 60/40 match pre-board in his favor. I hope this best answers your question. I'll try to test against Vito's deck (not much time tonight) and let you know how different it is from BorosPlayer's that I tested against in the past.

Its fun to see all the different directions elves (and now Druids!) can be taken. So many great decks and ideas off of one little tribe :). I've really started to see why so many people love Tapped Out!

Wow...I still haven't learned all of the lines I have to take on my deck (and still make a ton of mistakes :) and your Druid deck looks even more complex! I guess that's legacy for you :). Great deck deep_shadow...

Haha I understand CurdBrosBrewingCo I was just busting your internet balls lol. And I well also note, so that I'm not popped for plagiarism. I modeled Elf Beatdown around Borosplayers deck. But after some changes took off the cited source after making my own changes. I just got home and the wife is using the laptop to get some stuff done. Once i can get on I'll try to download cockatrice and figure it out.

Dreno33....I have to say you are a genius....While you most likely already know this ; it nevertheless must be said :)

Lightning Greaves is the most interesting card added to this deck EVER. It is so amazingly powerful in so many situations....you are right. I think it literally pushes the win-con one turn earlier on average.

Of course, I'm finding games are taking me an hour just to play (as there are so many decisions to make each turn) but I love it. Truly a great idea. Thank you so much for your help on this.

Not at all Vito1014...you made two very significant changes to the deck. The Nettle Sentinel / Heritage Druid combo and the addition of Elvish Visionary and reduction to 16 lands most certainly makes the deck your own. There is enough difference in the way the deck plays to call it your own without citing anyone. Both yours and BorosPlayer's decks are great; but are different. I just answered a question based on testing against BorosPlayer's deck and he was asking about yours.

I am an advocate that if you change a single card; you can call it your own deck; but I also feel like deck ownership only goes as far as taking credit and then everyone plays the deck and makes it their own. There's no difference between me getting suggestions from TO members and changing cards in the deck and you starting a portion of your deck off of another deck. But 16 out of 60 cards are different (27%); so I don't think anyone can claim plagiarism (as much as there can be in brewing :)

I'm not available tonight anyways; but I will have my phone if you need any help with cockatrice....I don't know how it works when one person plays another (like how triggers work when I draw cards off of a Wave, etc.) so there is PLENTY I'm gonna have to figure out as well :) But good luck on your end. We'll eventually get it together.

Talk to you soon!

Sounds great! Yeah this may need to be delayed a week or so. I dont think it would be fair to either me nor you to be jumping into duels for "bragging rights" without a good knowledge of the program. Dreno33 also has to set up his part that way we dont have any snags or delays once we get this thing going. I'll extend the favor as well with any help you need. Maybe you and I can practice other decks against each other just to familiarize ourselves with the in game process.

Have a great weekend! Cheers!

That would be fun! I would love to play other decks and have us help eachother play test. It will help us both familiarize ourselves with cockatrice vs. Another deck, familiarize ourselves with each others decks, and could add to the video (if they want). Good idea. I agree. It will take a week or so. But its a fun idea!

sounds good guys (CurdBrosBrewingCo and Vito1014). please help me edit the rules in the challenge article we were talking in. i wanted that completely sorted out before starting. thank you guys! so excited!!!! and let me know about the title of it too!

So I may be a little late to the party, but I would like to say thank you for realizing that Gilt-Leaf Archdruid is a real card. I honestly think devotion is going nowhere in Modern until they either decide to put Gray Merchant in a deck with Phyrexian Obliterator or put Gilt-Leaf Archdruid in a deck with Ezuri and Nykthos. That said, I would like to offer the following suggestion: -3 Abundant Growth , -1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader , -1 land (not sure if cavern, misty, or forest is correct) for +2 Horizon Canopy , +1 Regal Force , +1 Craterhoof Behemoth , and +1 Elvish Harbinger .

I know you tested the Craterhoof before and rejected it, but I'm honestly not quite sure why. My own deck wins with Craterhoof more often than any other card. Care to share?

Regal Force I like because it can often dig you out of a bad situation, or help you combo off if the Visionaries and Oracles are not so forthcoming. The Harbinger I suggest because, while a little slow, it does tap for mana (including blue), and can find Ezuri, Elvish Archdruid, or Gilt-Leaf Archdruid depending on what you need at the moment. I really like that versatility.

The Horizon Canopies I suggest because there has been some debate over land count vs. card draw and my immediate reaction is "Why not both?" Canopy has proven quite helpful for me in many of my testing sessions with my deck, Turbodruids.

RousseausDisciple....thank you for the kind words and the great suggestions!! You know your stuff!

First off, Horizon Canopy is a brilliant idea. The more card draw the better. I'd have to get rid of a Cavern of Souls and most likely a Misty Rainforest because I have to be really careful about having too many non-basics (non-Forests)... But the cycling ability is a great one in this deck.

I didn't really reject Craterhoof Behemoth as much as I didn't have room for him :). There is a delicate balance of card draw and ramp that this deck thrives on; and if you remove too much of one it gets very clunky (to be honest...its a little too clunky for my taste as it is....getting rid of masked admirer's took away some card draw).

I don't mind the Elvish Harbinger at all either. She can fetch a win-con and she's a Druid! I like that idea.

I will test every single one of these ideas today as all of them have merit. I can't thank you enough for such great suggestions!

By the way RousseausDisciple....I thought I had found some really interesting combo between Genesis Wave and Gilt-Leaf Archdruid through my "elf" search on Gatherer....and here you've had it in your deck! Just goes to show you that no idea in Magic is a new idea :)

If anyone wants to see a slightly different take on a few of these ideas...please do look at Turbodruids....it's a neat deck.

Thanks for the great suggestions. I'll test them know and update ASAP.

And before anyone involved in the match flips out...I screen shot the old list; so whenever that happens I don't mind playing the old build...I do want to continue to improve where I can, however, and when community members like Disciple provide great ideas; I still want to try them. I will still play with the old build though so as not to break any rules you have set up.

You can pull off your first Genesis Wave for X=30 on turn 3 in the legacy druids version of this. Which basically means half your entire libary has just been dumped onto the board. I just wish it were more consistent.