n0bunga Centaur Vinecrasher is MUCH more powerful then Lord of Extinction to a point where it would be detrimental to play Lord over it IMO. In a competitive, and even semicompetitive playgroup, lands are going to be hitting the graveyard. So you have to figure that we won't be the only one powering Centaur Vinecrasher. Yes the same is true with Lord of Extinction, but the two huge differences are Trample and it's recursion ability. I've taken Lord of Extinction out a long time ago from both my combo and value versions of the deck for this reason. Without an ability to give it evasion, like Filth, it will just get blocked until someone can remove. With Centaur Vinecrasher on the other hand we don't care if it's blocked or not, as it will get damage in. Also the recursion aspect is a HUGE advantage. It let's us not have to worry about it dying one, and two it lets Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord be a practical wincon no matter the life of our opponents as we can bring both back any turn they are in the graveyard and ping them for ~20-30 again.

Ender666666 I'm surprised you have kept Lord of Extinction in here after taking out Filth a while back. If you want to keep the same curve, then I would definitely think it would be the 5 drop to cut. Even in my value build, I have not even wanted to think about adding it back in. Centaur Vinecrasher is just that much better. The only thing I will say about Nissa, Vital Force while definitely great, it will draw a LOT of attention. Be ready to protect her when you get her.

n0bunga No problem. It took me a while when I first picked up the deck to learn it's power. But trust me, the power is definitely there.

Have you thought about using Zuran Orb and Amulet of Vigor? You can do a nice combo with splendid reclamation while amulet of vigor and zuran orb is on the field... you can cause tons of triggers and gain life with the zuran orb bring the lands back untapped with amulet of vigor on deck and if you drew into a graveyard recurssion card with git-rog or horn of greed on deck you can bring back splendid reclaimation and combo out again. I personally sac triggered with zuran orb & splended reclaimation 3 times in one turn and got to 100+ life. You should consider using those 2 cards

It's aneat interaction, but it's not useful enough to make the space and hope to have all 3 cards. I have tried the Zorb and it was OK, but not ideal.

n0bunga Sadly the Froggy one does not trigger per land going to the grave, but triggers when a group of lands hit the grave. So if someone were to Armageddon, then we would only be getting one draw from it. As a land itself Darksteel Citadel is decent, but there is definitely other lands we would play before it.

Also sorry for taking your questions Ender666666 :p. It's hard to ignore things even though I know this isn't my thread.

Thinking about Darksteel Citadel and Armageddon got me to wonder if there were any more effective land destruction effects in our colors. Nothing too substantial came up, aside from the single target spells and a couple of creatures that are too high of a CMC to be considered. Strangely enough though, we have Tsunami and Stench of Evil which could be sideboard options depending on the meta and if you want to be THAT guy.

Per instance. So if something causes 3 to go, you get 1 draw. Something else (or different instance/activation of the same thing) will cause another draw. That's why Dakmor Salvage + Skirge Familiar works as an engine.

n0bunga You would get two draws in that example, as it is two separate instances of a land going to the grave. There is no upper limit on the Frog Father's ability to draw, as long as the lands are hitting the grave at different times.

So say you have a fetchland and The All Mighty (Praise Be Upon Him) on field, and a card with dredge in grave. Crack the fetch land to search for X land, the land hits the grave as cost which will then cause a draw trigger to happen before we search with the fetch land. Then say we decide to use that draw to activate dredge in our grave milling two lands. This instance will only cause one draw trigger to happen as the lands were set to the grave during the same instance. At this point the stack will look like: fetchland -> draw trigger that is being replaced by adding back the dredge card -> draw trigger from having lands hit the grave due to being dredged. Things resolve backwards, and the last thing you'll do is search the land.

I'm thinking about Oblivion Crown, and how it might accelerate us on the combat side. I'm wondering if it might not be a great substitute for Zombie Infestation.

Thoughts?

I've tested it in a midrange version of the deck and it was meh. Does what is says on the tin, and the flash part is a nice trick but overall it just felt too costly for what it was giving. Another problem I had with it was that it had to be put on a creature, and well creatures tend to die sooner or later. It does not feel good having to use an Regrowth effect to get this back. The only upside to this, that I can think of, would be holding mana up on turn 2/3 to play this even on another player's creature and then next turn playing The Toad Father.

I also don't think Zombie Infestation would be the cut if you did. I'm sticking by with Z.I. as one of the best discard outlets for this deck. Give it a shot, and let me know though. I'm always down to give something a second chance.

I am going to test out Oblivion Crown over Zombie Infestation, which I never seem to use.

Internet, fellow Toadies... give me your best argument on why I should run Dryad Arbor over a basic Forest. I am tempted to play it, but am unsure if it will make a difference

Dryad Arbor is meh to good. Would lean more towards meh in your deck though. As said above it can also be used for creature related shenanigans, I.E. blocking, sacking to an Diabolic Edict effect, discarding to Survival of the Fittest, etc. Honestly 9/10 games the fact that you can't tap it the turn it comes out won't be that big of a deal, especially with your high density of lands.

Where I take issue is the prevalence of board wipe and other creature removal effects being able to hit this as well. Dryad Arbor is best in more aggressive decks like Edric, Spymaster of Trest, but would still probably be worth it to run here as it is still searchable though forest fetchlands and pretty much just is a "basic" that comes in tapped.

If you do add it in, I would suggest thinking about Eldritch Evolution, Green Sun's Zenith, or even Natural Order as ways to capitalize off of it.

Thanks.

Anyone got any other thoughts on this?

I think you should include a special section of hazardous cards to go against for this deck. For one thing, I have a deck with Rest in Peace that I know will cause you a ton of pain. Same for Leyline of the Void. Also, Leovold, Emissary of Trest and Spirit of the Labyrinth really hurt you.

Not a bad suggestion there....

Titania, Protector of Argoth?

Has anyone suggested Mesmeric Orb yet? each untap causes a seperate trigger of mill one causing metric tons of drawing on your turn, and shoving lands in your opponents grave for Centaur Vinecrasher making him truly a monster to be dealt with also a really great way to abuse Splendid Reclamation even more then you already are

Working on a primer, how did you get the background on html?

almalong Is has been suggested before, and dismissed... But you make a good argument for it... I just might test it out because of you

Wash14 Check my wall for the code

n0bunga I can't speak for Ender666666, but Herald of Leshrac is meh. It's not what the combo version of the deck want's to be doing due to it's high CMC and little impact when played.

In the midrange version of the deck, those factors also apply. Like you said it does have utility with land sacrifice effects, but it'll take a full turn rotation to even steal one land. Sadly people like their lands, those greedy individuals, so this just has a giant target on it from when it's played. And since it has no effect until our next turn, everyone gets a shot to destroy it. Which will make us pretty much trade a turn for someone's removal spell, as we don't have ways to protect it outside of the boots.

I do have my own bias against cards that have such a high CMC that don't provide either a way to win or highly advantage us though, so keep that in mind. If you have ways to ramp/cheat this out and protect it even through board wipes it can win you the game, but you need to remember that it'll have a low impact at the start.

Catgroove pretty much hit it on the head. Although I am a fan of Herald in theory, he takes way too long to do anything useful, and costs a lot to get out. I'm going more for things that do something now to advance my game.

n0bunga I haven't looked at your list in a bit, but I'd really suggest Titania, Protector of Argoth, Rampaging Baloths, or Avenger of Zendikar, in that order, before touching Reach of Branches. Reach has such a high cost to output compared to these three.

Rampaging Baloths will most probably get you the most tokens of the three, but Titania, Protector of Argoth's ability to grab a land from the yard and put it directly onto the battlefield is amazing.

Mostly SnG's. I've considered removing it but haven't found a need yet