RandumbDude says... #2
This might be able to squeeze in one or two Nemesis of Mortals since Nylea will give it trample.
June 26, 2014 12:01 p.m.
RandumbDude: Should I switch Nemesis out for Colossus or Polukranos? He definitely gels with the synergy.
June 26, 2014 2:12 p.m.
You might want to consider boon satyr main board. It can trigger strength at instant speed and surprises most opponents.
July 3, 2014 2:32 p.m.
Your deck is going to be wildly inconsistent with so many 1s and 2s as opposed to what you could pull off using 3s and 4s primarily. Cards I would cut and increase (feel free to mix and match, this advice doesn't come as a singular block):
Cut:
-2 Gnarled Scarhide - you're not playing aggro, so you don't need a 2/1 that can't block. It's bestow is nice but also not that good. Keep in mind that even if you open this card, you're not going to be able to block with it- meaning the whole point of having an early presence for a non aggro deck is moot.
-2 Brain Maggot - he's nice, but doesn't at all mesh with your strategy besides being an enchantment. Basically, you can do better.
-1 Herald of Torment - same as the minotaur, you're not running aggro and the bestow isn't as good as something else in the slot.
-2x Drown in Sorrow - this should almost always be sideboard tech. The only situation you'll want a wipe desperately is when you're playing against hard aggro.
-2x Doomwake Giant - you're hardly going to kill anything unless you get a LOT of enchantments in one turn.
-2x Nemesis of Mortals - not an enchantment. Consolidate your win conditions.
Add
+1x Strength of the Fallen - probably the most synergistic card in your deck. You're gonna want a playset.
+1x Nighthowler - your best win condition besides the above, I would argue. Another solid choice for a playset.
+4x Hero's Downfall - you have very very little removal. You're going to need some.
+2x Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - he's legendary and has a very specific casting cost, so you're not gonna want too many. But damn if this guy isn't amazing in GY based Standard decks.
+2x Nyx Weaver - holy crap, man, this is one of the best, if not the best, enablers in the deck. Why are you not running 4?
Hope that helped.
July 8, 2014 12:27 p.m.
Why are you playing hate for a T-2/3 deck? No one is going to main board Return to Nature, Tormod's Crypt, or most things that really fuck up this deck.
So, if you're done feigning intelligence by being a contrarian, do you have any real suggestions?
July 8, 2014 1:09 p.m.
There's no need to be rude. He was not being constructive, but you shouldn't yell at him.
July 8, 2014 1:10 p.m.
With an enchantment cylce and the printing of a card that completely destroys whip of erebos, bident, every enchantment creature from theros block, detention sphere, underworld connections, It will be in most people side boards.
If you are playing against affinity and a 2 mana white enchantment shut down the whole deck, people put it in their sideboard. It happened in the scars block and it will happen in this block.
You can still make dredge but you have to think of new pieces to play it better. Nemsis of mortals is going to be the main 4 of to get the damage in. Satyr Wayfinder Necromancer's Assistant Undergrowth Scavenger and Endless Obedience are going to be the new ways the dredge deck is going to power through and put the undergrowth Scavenger from the yard into play.
One card can ruin a block of great deck idea's. Just saying it happened before when affinity decks were hot and you have to adjust accordingly.
Plus you have artfacts deck turning out a 6/6 on turn 3 with chief engineer. And that 6/6 deals 6 damage when it goes to the yard. ouch. Maybe R/U artifacts might be king soon.
July 8, 2014 1:26 p.m.
@Dekord- You're right, I shouldn't. Sorry, raca137, I just get frustrated when people are just pointing out the flaws. I am building this deck because it is a little non-linear and fun, I know what this deck is weak against. I want constructive criticism, so I can win bad match ups and be more consistent. I thought about deleting this deck because of some of the enchantment hate we've seen in m15, but my friend told me it's not something to worry about.
I agree with most of your suggestions, though I do like Doomwake and Nemesis of Mortals. Nemesis of Mortals is probably the one I want to keep most, he's usually a 5/5 for GG. That's hard to beat, and if Back to Nature does see play or Polis Crusher becomes more popular, then I have some way to play around it.
I was playing four-ofs Nyx Weaver, Strength, and Hero's Downfall. I'm not the best with dredge, I've seen it played very well by a friend (he coincidentally built a very similar deck). Nighthowler has been awesome, I like Jarad's second ability with Strength. By the way, you're missing an addition.
July 8, 2014 1:31 p.m.
Damn, must have messed up my numbers. Oh, well, counting is difficult anyway. An extra Abrupt Decay never hurt, especially with both Banishing Light and Detention Sphere in standard (meaning it isn't bad against control, which is generally where the card loses strength)
Since nobody in their right mind is going to MB Back to Nature or Tormod's Crypt unless their meta is heavy with the decks that they counter, I'd suggest looking at your LGS and seeing what kind of decks and what kind of hate people run. If people DO run a lot of hate, then sideboard to mix up your strategy enough to deal with it. If not, just sideboard against what people are running.
July 8, 2014 1:37 p.m.
The Abrupt Decay is probably best.
In the sideboard, Nemesis of Mortals and something like Polukranos or Arbor Colossus would probably come in against enchantment hate. Drown in Sorrow and Devour Flesh would be brought in for Aggro match-ups. Against Control, I'm a little shaky on what I need to bring in.
July 8, 2014 1:48 p.m.
Pithing Needle and Golgari Charm are going to be your best bets vs control.
July 8, 2014 1:51 p.m.
Looks good for now, I'll test it a few times and get some notes from my friend. Thanks a lot, Dekord.
July 8, 2014 1:57 p.m.
CrovaxTheCursed says... #17
I would add in Master of the Feast . He's an amazing target for Strength from the Fallen and Spiteful Returned if you want to add that too. Maybe take out the Sylvan Caryatid since they're not really necessary in this build. I'm not so sure about the removal spells in here since they can very easily be dredged away and worthless. You do have Nyx Weaver , but if you can't pull off the return in time, it can really hurt. Not to mention they don't fuel Jarad or Strength or Nighthowler. I would drop the kill spells (at least sideboard them) for more enchantment creatures. You want to get the most out of your dredges, and I say this from experience. I have been playing dredge in Standard for around 6 months and instants and sorceries do more harm than good (except the dredging spells). What I do with mine is just run Extinguish All Hope and that has always been enough to save me. By the time I have 6 mana, I have stabilized and the opponent thinks my deck is a joke so they empty their hand (that is, if it's a creature deck, control usually isn't too much of a problem). Then I just Extinguish All Hope and they're out of permanents and cards in hand while my Yard gets nice and full for a surprise Strength from the Fallen . Anyway, sorry for the narrative, I would just consider going more creature heavy and see if it doesn't help you win faster. +1
July 17, 2014 4:37 p.m.
I like Master of the Feast in that he has evasion, he can easily be a 10/10 with Strength, Nylea give him trample, and he triggers Constellation, but I really don't think that giving my opponent more chances to answer helps me.
I'm not taking out Sylvan Caryatid, it does work; stemming Aggro, producing mana, and being Devotion for my gods. I love having a T2 Caryatid into a T3 Wayfinder or Eidolon of Blossoms. She's on my shortlist of the best cards from Theros block.
I may be getting lucky, but I like how responsive and resilient this deck can be. I usually win on turn 7-8, I even got down to 5 once. Your strategy is interesting, but it assumes your opponent will over-extend consistently. I'm trying to go over the top with 2-3 good activations of Strength with Nylea, my most common target for Nyx Weaver.
Maybe play test it and tell me what you think, because, yeah, I've noticed that a lot of the removal ends up in the trash heap.
July 17, 2014 5:12 p.m.
CrovaxTheCursed says... #19
I understand about keeping the Caryatids, I would agree that it's a top 3 card from Theros block (and all of Standard for that matter). Something you may or may not be interested in trying is splashing white for removal. Commune with the Gods /Kruphix's Insight can grab Banishing Light and Skybind , as well as Sphere of Safety , Pacifism , Arrest , etc. It has actually worked a lot better than expected (although I don't use skybind anymore cause it's slow and turn 5 should be more explosive), and I also added Aegis of the Gods and Martial Law to my sideboard. Adding white will open up a can of worms, but it does make removal a little easier for "dredgestellation". I have playtested yours on a few of my decks and yours is very powerful indeed. The main difference between yours and mine is I tried to go full on Constellation as opposed to just taking the most powerful cards. Both ways have their pros and cons and it's all a matter of preference I suppose. :)
July 18, 2014 10:40 a.m.
eslaton7751- I've debated it pretty extensively. The removal, pseudo-removal, and the pillow fort are all enticing, we all know why they gave White the worst Constellation triggers, its enchantments are already amazing. You don't need added incentive.
My hang-ups are two; 1) White doesn't get anything out of dredge and 2) I have to play more lands if I add in white. The average for Junk Constellation is around 25. It think they counter-act any benefit of playing White.
There might be more aggro-ish Constellation decks to be made, one that focuses more on Eidolon of Blossoms and White's amazing enchantments like Ethereal Armor and Unflinching Courage with Hexproof.
July 18, 2014 12:07 p.m.
CrovaxTheCursed says... #21
Very true, White does not benefit from Dredge or need good Consty triggers. It would be more for utility, and I definitely don't want to compromise your theme for utility. If dredge is your main theme, it should definitely stay BG. If Constellation be yer fancy, White would provide better triggers. I have played around with both, and as I mentioned each have their pros and cons. Neither seems to be more effective than the other, although I wouldn't mind trying the Junk aggro thing you mentioned...
July 18, 2014 12:17 p.m.
eslaton7751- I'm trying to balance them both so I have more options. I was talking with a friend of mine who plays dredge constantly, he built a very similar concept but relied more on the dredge with Nighthowler and Lotleth Troll than Strength (not main boarded) and Constellation. He really likes my list because it has more answers, though it's not as explosive as his.
I'll put together a rough draft and link it soon.
July 18, 2014 2:14 p.m.
Junk Voltron Playtest
Standard
SCORE: 0 | 0 COMMENTS | 3 VIEWSHere's something like what I was thinking.
July 18, 2014 3:01 p.m.
I've been working with a similar deck around here for the past month or so. These are some of the changes I've made over time:
What I don't like:
Nyx Weaver This card is just too slow for what you're trying to do with this deck. It really looks great on paper, but it consistently under performed at FNM.
Pharika, God of Affliction I really fell in love with this card and I tried to convince myself for so long that it was good. A few times it performed miracles, but it was never consistent enough to deserve a spot in the deck. When I took her out, things always went smoother.
Sylvan Caryatid sometimes it was nice to have some extra mana to play with, but after turn 4 she was basically useless to me. Maybe it's just the way my cards would always draw, but I couldn't get the same millage I got used to with this card while using this deck.
Hero's Downfall I really haven't had enough use for this card. As I'm sure you've experienced, pretty much any time you proc one of those Strength from the Fallen cards on a monster you've had it murder the crap out of anything that was forced to block you. So I kinda did away with the kill cards in favor of making sure I could proc and swing on every turn.
What I like:
Whip of Erebos This card is wonderful! Upon the recommendation of another player though, I tested my deck using 3 copies instead of just the 1 or 2 I would normally roll with. And it makes a huge difference to get this lifelink every game. I've tested with all 4 quantities of the card and found 3 to be the sweetspot for me.
Some cards to consider:
Lotleth Troll This card is my MVP. It has managed to stall the game when I was waiting for the right stuff to draw and it has trampled over anything I ever threw him at. And, when I really need to fill that graveyard fast he's a great way to dump some extra creatures I don't need when I've drawn too many from either the Eidolons or Kruphix's insight.
Courser of Kruphix Aside from being a pretty big wall most of the time, the extra life is nice and ability is great for skewing card draw in your favor. I run 3 right now and I'd recommend giving them a go some time.
Doomwake Giant I know it's a ton of mana in a deck like this, but that effect helps so much against weenies and tokens. Plus if the game ever goes on long enough (which it has for me a few times) I've pulled in a second copy and by then there's constellation procs everywhere. The giant is usually the card in my deck that eats the most spot removal and counterspells. Plus, I usually just feed them to the troll and whip them in later. It procs constellation and hits hard naturally on its own with that haste.
July 18, 2014 4:38 p.m.
Hyvin- It sounds like you're also knowledgeable about dredge, which is great.
Nyx Weaver- I don't think she's too slow; she just does a lot of things well. She can't mill like Kruphix's Insight and she can't tutor like Whip, but she does both and can be a target for Strength. But
I may move Pharika to the sideboard, for either another Whip or Nylea. I like what she does; good cheap body with a mana sink, but there's better.
Sylvan Caryatid is too good for me not to play. It lets me ramp into some good plays, let's me play fewer lands, and it's not a bad blocker. On the topic of lands, Courser doesn't do work when you're only playing 20 lands. She needs you to play 24+ to be the $16 card she is, it also helps if you're not trying to dig through the lands to creatures.
I understand the skepticism over removal, but I haven't been able to really justify not having a few kill spells laying around. Playing BG without removal is like playing UR without card draw.
I'm not playing Lotleth Troll because it detracts from my enchantment base which is part of my deck's foundation. It's a great card, I've seen it be fricking terrifying, but it's not what I want and it's rotating soon.
Thank you for the comment.
PreZchoICE1 says... #1
from my standpoint your sideboard is fairly weak I would consider switching up your mana base a little bit and adding maybe Temple of Malice X4 and 2 more confluences cutting 6xswamp out. The reason I say this is so you can splash another color into your board to help you against more control based builds.
As someone who tested Pharika in commander fairly extensively I wouldn't recommend her in the std format at all.
June 25, 2014 7:21 p.m.