Changes. because a lot of players are running Blue Black, and Mono Black Zombie's, I changed updated sideboard, bu changing, turning the 2 Surgical extractions, into 1 more Autumn's Veils, and 1 more Grafdigger's Cages, for 3 of each of them.

I also changed, updated the DECK BREAKDOWN, in the Deck Description, of the deck page.

Also gave a FNM report, summary in both the UPDATES, and comments sections

Changes: Took out 1 Brimstone Volley, to go from 62 cards, 22 lands, 4, 4 x 4 of's, rest 3x 3 of's, 4 Bird mana dudes, . 3548% land, mana ratio, down to:

61 cards, 22 lands, 3, 4x 4 of's. rest 3x 3 of's, 4 Bird mana dudes, .3606% land, mana ratio.

Updated DECK BREAKDOWN, in the Deck Description.

Updated Sideboard Out Slot List:

SIDEBOARD OUT SLOTS:

1. 1
2. 1

Will be playing the deck at FNM, for the 3rd time. The 1st 2 times, the deck went 4-2, and 3-1.

Will give a FNM report.

Changes:

Turned 1 Chandra, into 1 more Brimstone Volley, for 4 Brimstones, and 2 chandras. The change makes it so that I can Brimstone Volley more. I noticed, that I wasn't getting Brimstone as often as I wanted or needed to. Also By taking out 1 chandra, I have 1 less 4 cmc card in deck, which helps the ave cmc of the deck to drop. Also I noticed that with 3 4 cmc Chandras, and 3 4 cmc Garruks, that I was often getting 2 to 4 4 cmc planewalkers, flooding my hand.

Also after playtesting the change, chandra still comes out often enough, albeit later in the game. I also occcasionally get chandra out early still. And the change gives me a extra sideboard out slot as well.

Changed Updated the DECK BREAKDOWN in the Deck Description.

Updated Sideboard out slots list:

SIDEBOARD OUT SLOTS:

1. 1
2. 1
3. 1 Chandra, the Firebrand

I wasn't able to play the deck in the last FNM, altho I still playtested the deck, in a couple more casual games, and in online simulated, playtested, sample hands, games,etc.

I will play the deck this coming FNM on friday, and give a FNM report.

I just did a few games of playtest with your deck, and I have a few notes. I had to mulligan down to four cards about four of the games I played, so I would consider adding more lands. Also, Immerwolf and Huntmaster don't really play well together because Huntmaster's extraordinary power depends on his flipping as much as possible, which Immerwolf prevents him from doing. I love your Chandra + Green Sun's Zenith tech, and I may steal it for my GR Aggro deck, but I almost never had enough mana to use it effectively before I had already killed my imaginary opponent. I recommend adding either more lands or some Llanowar Elves. Also, with Garruk, I found myself having difficulty flipping him because your creatures were too large to use his second 0 ability without that creature killing him. Llanowar Elves would also help by being fodder for this. Other than that, this is a really cool and fast deck.

Leiser:

Thanks for the +1, comment. I have playtested this deck about 33 to 67 times per change, and 1 to 100 times per comment I have made, for a total of about 500 to 1500 times.

If you read the DECK BREAKDOWN, in the Deck Breakdown, that back when I had a lower, worse mana ratio, then the .3606% land, mana ratio the deck has now, I only had to mulligan 15 times out of 100 games.

When you only playtest a few games, you set yourself up for weird short term results. For example once at a FNM, with a Goblin deck that had 60 cards, 21 lands, a 35% mana ratio, 3 Mox Opals, 3 Infernal plunges, etc, I had 3 mulligans, and 2 double mulligans, due to 1 land, no land.

Me and another player, in addition to you, have also had a LIMITED, SHORT TERM, TEMPORARY mulligan problem while playtesting. If you flip a coin 1 trillion times, it will come up heads, like 100,000 times in a row. Do anything long enough, and enough times, and weird stuff that SHOULDN'T HAPPEN statistically will happen.

My Deck has a .3606% land, mana ratio, and has a 2.64 ave cmc. no card above 4 cmc, and 4 Bird mana dudes. I statistically SHOULD get 3 lands on average, with 2 lands at minimum, and 4 lands, at most, in opening hand. And statistically if I get 2 lands, I SHOULD get 1 or 2 lands, or 1 land, 1 mana dude by turns 3,4, for 4 mana mininum by turn 4.

The last time someone made a similar comment like yours, about potential mana problems, I playtested 25 to 35 games, and posted the mana draw results 5 results at a time, during each of 7 comments.

During that, I only had to mulligan 3 times. Once was a 5 land mana flood. 2 times, only had 1 or no land. This was back when I had NO Mana Dudes, and a .3548% land, mana ratio, instead of the .3606% land, mana ratio, 4 mana dudes, the deck has now.

Please don't make me playtest the deck like another 50 times, and report the results in 10 comments, to prove that there is absolutely NO mana problems, unless you get extremely unlucky in the extreme short term.

But other then that thanks for the comment.

I will address your concerns about Huntmaster Below

Thanks for the comment.

About Huntmaster with Immerwolf in the deck together at the same time together, in the deck:

1. Huntmaster only flips BACK and FORTH, OVER and OVER, about 1.15 per game, and about 1.85 times per every 1.5 games. This is because:

A. Opponents are not dumb enough to play 2 spells, and flip Huntmaster back, after it has been flipped. B. It's harder then people think to cast 2 spells during your turn to flip Huntmaster back after it has been flipped.

C. After you get 1,2 flipped Mayor's out, 1,2 PUMPED flipped Nightfall Predator out, and 1 flipped PUMPED 7/6 Huntmaster with Trample out, your not going to even want to flip huntmaster back most of the time, after its been flipped.

D. Your better served TRYING to get Huntmaster flipped back and forth 1 time, and then getting all your werewolves out, and flipped, and then putting immerwolf out to protect everything from being flipped back. At that point you have gotten what you want or need out of Huntmaster.

E.Huntmaster cost 4 cmc, can be searched up by Green Sun, and produces a 2/2 wolf token,that USUALLY, hits the board as a PUMPED 5/4 to 7/6 wolf token. Then you get 2 life, and then after flipping it kill a Opponents creature. Then you do 2 damage to foe.

EVEN IF HUNTMASTER GETS REMOVED, OR DOESN"T FLIP BACK AFTER ITS BEEN FLIPPED AFTER THAT, you have gotten a HELL OF A LOT OF VALUE out of Huntmaster, at that point.

F. Considering all the points above. You want 3 Huntmasters, 3 Immerwolfs, and 3 Phyrexian Metamorphs, in a deck. 2 of any of them is not enough. And 4 of any of them is to much. 4 of them does sometimes create conflicting problems. By running 3 of each of them, you USUALLY get out either by draw, or by Green Sun, or by Garruk Relentless, at least 1 flipped Mayor, 1 flipped Daybreak Ranger. Then here is the key.You then Metamorph copy the flipped Mayors, Nightfall Predators. Since Metamorph can't be flipped back, then its ok to try to flip Huntmaster back, since Metamorph wont flip back.

But if you don't have any metamorph copies out, if you have a huntmaster out, or if you don't have a huntmaster out. or if you have everything out, then its ok to put immerwolf out.

If you only have 2 or 4 of each, instead of 3, then you will either not get stuff out, or you will be forced to have huntmaster, and immerwolf out together when you dont want it.

So 3 Huntmasters and 3 immerwolfs, work just fine together in a werewolf deck, as long as you also have 3 Metamorphs in the deck, to help protect werewolves, from getting flipped back, when you don't have immerwolf out.

Leiser: About :

Garruk is there, not to kill off your own creatures. It's there to:

1. Do 3 damage, kill off opponents, 1/1, 2/2, 3/3 aggro creatures. If that flips Garruk, then great. But if it doesn't, that might seem like paying 4 mana to deal 3 damage, Kill a foe's creature, is less efficient, but killing a foe's X captain, before his creatures can get pumped up to big by multiple captains, to be removed, is worth the cost.
2. Garruk puts out 2/2 wolf tokens, that's worth the 4 cmc for Garruk.
3. Garruk flipps to put out 1/1 death touch wolf tokens, sac a creature, search for a creature, pump up all your creatures.

A. Killing off foe's 1/1, 2/2 creatures, and your birds, or 2/2 wolf tokens.

B. But even if Garruk doesn't flip, you can still put out 2/2 wolf tokens, and or do 3 damage to kill off or help kill off 1 of foe's creatures, even if doing so kills Garruk

C. Even if Garruk kills itself by killing 1 of foe's creatures, it still worth the 4 mana to do so.

Thanks again for your comments, and your +1's. I hope that these explanations on, about how there should be no mana problems, why Huntmaster, immerwolf work just fine in a deck together in a deck, and about garruk, help you and others understand the logic, reasons, playtesting, results, etc, on why your, others concerns, about these things, are nothing to be worried, concerned about, and that these things, concerns, that should not be concerns, don't stop the deck from working good, and that the deck works just fine, good, great.

Mike

Changes:

Changed updated sideboard:

Turned 3 Autumn's Veil, into 3 Mana Leak

I turned 1 Forest, into 1 Hinterland Harbor, to help the 3,4 birds, and 3 Green Sun's, and 3 Garruks, to either draw, get out a Bird, or to draw, get out a Hinterland Harbor, to get 1 blue mana to cast Mana Leak, when its Sideboarded in.

During playtesting, I somewhere between almost consistently, to consistently got 1 blue mana out by, on, turns 3,4. I also get 1 of the 3 Mana Leaks by,on, turns 3,4.

The Full Moon's Rises, and the Mana Leaks, will help shut down board wipes, removal cards like D O J, Divine Reckoning, Black Sun's Zenith, Ratchet Bomb, Tragic Slip, Dismember, O Ring, Fiend Hunter, etc, from being used against me, when either Full Moon's Rise doesn't work, or when I don't draw. get a Full Moon's Rise. And the Mana Leaks will help stop potential win con threats from even hitting the board.

Also because its a Red, Green Werewolf deck, nobody will see the Mana Leaks coming, games 2,3, and so probably won't sideboard in Autumn's Veils, Grand Abolishers, Mana Leaks, to stop me from mana leaking them.

So now the deck and sideboard, now has 4 Full Moon's Rises, and 3 Mana Leaks.

The deck now has answers to almost anything, everything.

Credit for this idea, goes to the Ratchet Bomb question, discussion, in the Q & A forums. The discussion was about how Full Moon's Rise wasn't always enough, because it sometimes didn't come out enough to shut down Ratchet Bomb. So that's when I thought of this idea to Mana Leak Ratchet Bomb.

Changes:

Turned 1 Kessig Wolf Run, into 1 more Hinterland Harbor, for 2 of them, instead of just 1 of them, to both help get out 1 blue mana to be able to mana leak, when I side in Mana leak, and because with adding the 1 Hinterland Harbor earlier, the 7 colorless lands, combined with the extra 1 specialty land, in Hinterland Harbor, was causing to many specialty lands, in opening hand, more often, instead of a forest, or Copperline Gorge.

Going with 6 colorless lands, instead of 7, makes it so that get more forest, Copperlines, in opening hand, and more forest, rootbound crags, copperlines, Hinterland Harbors, turn 2,3,4,5, etc.

After LOTS of playtesting, the Mana base is better, and there less mulligans, less bad mana draws.

Changed, updated DECK BREAKDOWN, in the Deck Description.

Going to Thursday Night Magic at Uncles Games Store in Spokane, WA, today, tonight.

I will give a report on how the deck does.

So the one guy I'm having issues with when going against black is Phyrexian Obliterator , any thoughts on getting rid of him??

Hey h2o, and others, sorry I haven't updated the deck page, during the last 3 to 5 days. Also h2o, the reason why I haven't helped you on your zombie deck, is that I have been busy with this deck, and because I have never, ever made a zombie deck before.

I did play the deck at the thursday night magic, where I got trounced 3 matches, out of 4, for a 1-3 record, by Mirran Crusader, Elesh Norn, indestructible 4/4 artifact creatures, and Swords.

I went 1-2, 1-2, 2-0, 0-2. My deck played ok, and I absolutely didn't have any mana problems whatsoever, the whole tourney. The 1 and only problem I had, and it was a consistent one, was NOT drawing 1 of 3 mana leaks, and 1 of 3 naturalizes, when I would side them in.

Also I couldn't draw Brimstone Volleys, and only drew 1 or 2 Brimstone Volleys, the whole tourney. 1 in 1 game, and 1 in another game. I only drew 1 or 2 naturalizes, and 1 or 2 Mana Leaks.

The only thing I can think of to help against mirran crusaders, and swords, is to turn 1 Brimstone Volley, 1 Garruk, into 2 incinerates, or 2 arc trails, or 2 other removal spells, that are not green, or black.

That would give me 5 red removal spells, instead of 4 Brimstones, to help have better draw odds, of getting a red removal spell to deal with Mirran crusader, before sword of war and peace comes out.

As for what to do about obliterator. That's easy. 1. his 4 black mana cost makes him not come out until late game. 2. Your werewolves are likely to be bigger then obliterator by then. 3. You can use a flipped daybreak ranger, nightfall predator to kill obliterator in the arena. Remember only direct damage, like red burn spells, make obliterator make you sac permanents.

Block killing, and arena killing obliterator, does not cause you to have to sac permanents. 4. Put out lots of pumped werewolves. Sure you will get knocked down to like 4 life before you win., but that's ok. 5. Save Moonmist for Obliterator. 6. Mana Leak Obliterator

Changes:

Turned 1 Garruk, 1 Brimstone, into 2 Incinerates, for 5 red, 2,3 cmc instant speed removal, instead of 4 like before, to help card draw odds on getting a red burn removal card, early enough to get rid of Mirran Crusader, BEFORE Sword of War and Peace, almost makes it almost impossible to deal with.

The change also lowers my ave cmc of the deck from 2.64, down to 2.56 cmc, and also betters my mana curve.

Changed updated the DECK BREAKDOWN in the Deck Description.

Changed, updated the sideboard out slot list.

Changed updated the Meta Maybe switch board, maybe board.

great deck I have several of these cards and if I could afford the rest this is how I would want my huntmaster deck to run. kudos and a +1 to help reach that milestone of 10.

also great breakdown and description.

just wanted to let you know and I know you already know this but in comment #82 you talk about ways for garruk to flip and you said that you can kill your own birds. This will not flip garruk because birds has a power of 0 and will not lower garruks loyalty.

regarding phyrexian obliterator you said in comment #87 arena damage will not make you have to sac permanents this isn't true because of the way phyrexian obliterator is worded any form of damage will cause it's controler to sac permanents if you use a fliped daybreak ranger it deals damage equal to its power is still a form of damage and as such you will have to sac that many permanents. there are four effective ways to get rid of obliterator

1. destroy/sac/reduce P/T ex. Doom Blade/Geth's Verdict/Dismember
2. remove from game ex. Oblivion Ring
3. counter ex. Mana Leak/[[dissipate]
4. discard ex. Despise

out of all the options I think Dismember is the best because it can be used in any color and works at instant speed.

Thanks for the comments and +1 SwiftDeath. That's cool that you have several to most of the cards. As to affording the rest, I understand. I had to take cards out of my blue, black, green infect deck, my RG land destruction deck, and my mono kuldotha red goblin deck, and pay about $175 for the rest.

And the ONLY reason why I was even able to afford paying that, is because of T and M cards owner, Travis, was awesome in letting me make a down lay away payment, and then pay the rest off in about 32 days, and altho the cards strayed at the store, during the 32 day law away time, he let me use them in my deck, during FNM's.

I am a little bit suprised that you and others like my Deck Breakdown, Description. I Don't know how to do all the FLASHY stuff, like pics of cards, different colored text, vids, links, frames, etc, that I have seen in others decks.Heck, I just figured out how to do the blue card linking thing, no to long ago.

So if you and others have any suggestions on how to make my deck name, breakdown, description, better, and or can show me how to do the flashy stuff, it would be greatly appreciated. That said the deck doesn't need a flashy promotional presentation.

As far as Birds, not being able to flip Garruk, thanks for pointing that out, as it didnt occur to me at the time. But after thinking about it, 1 can pump a Bird to a 1/1 using Kessig Wolf Run, and then Garruk kill the bird to flip Garruk.

But your right, without doing that, Birds can't normally flip Garruk. But that's not gona make me take Garruk out. Even if Birds, won't normally flip Garruk, and or even if Garruk doesn't flip as often because of that, Garruk's Zero abilities still make it worth main decking.

Anyways, thanks again for your comment

Mike

SwiftDeath, I could be wrong here, but I think that Nightfall Predator deals lethal combat damage during when it fights creatures.

The Nightfall Predator fighting another creature thing is like as if either Nightfall Predator, or Obliterator, attacked, and Nightfall Predator, or Obliterator Blocks, and they deal their damage to each other.

The key wordage of Nightfall Predator, is "FIGHTS". In the "Attack", "Combat" Phase of a Turn, creatures "FIGHT", "ATTACK","COMBAT", "BLOCK", and in doing so, creatures "deal damage equal to their power, to each other".

That's the same exact text, that Nightfall Predator uses, and the same exact thing it does, when it fights another creature. The ONLY difference between what Nightfall Predator does, in fighting creatures, and the combat phase when other creatures attack, block, fight, is that Nightfall Predator, does the exact same kind of fighting OUTSIDE, BEFORE, AFTER, DURING Combat Phase(Nightfall Predator can block, and fight another creature at the same time)

So according to that logic, Nightfall Predator, when it fights, kills, Obliterator, should not cause you to have to sac permanents, just like block killing obliterator, doesn't cause you to sac permanents.

Now if Nightfall Predator, were like other creatures, that said: "tap: deal this much damage to target creature", instead of what it says, then you would be logically right.

But I am just going by logic. I could be wrong. Some of Magic the gathering's rules, aren't always logical, and don't always interpret card text mechanics logically.

Dismember is a great answer to obliterator, but in answering 1 problem, you make a different problem worse. H2o has a werewolf deck, and he is having problems with his werewolf deck dealing with Obliterator.

Now he could put in Dismember, and that would deal with Obliterator. But then he would have a harder time dealing with Mirran Crusader, that has Protect from Black, and Green.

That's why I don't use Dismember.

like you and I both pointed out, SwiftDeath, there are many ways to deal with Obliterator. My werewolf Deck, Usually deals with Obliterator just fine. Also if I have to I can just Brimstone Volley, get rid of it, and then sac 1 land, 1 bird, and 3 wolf tokens, mid to late game, which is no skin off my back by then.

Or I can block kill obliterator with 1 or 2 wolf token. Or I can block Obliterator, with a 1/1 deathtouch wolf token. Or I can just keep chump blocking Obliterator with 4/4 wolf tokens.

My Werewolf deck produces a lot of Wolf tokens, to be able to deal with Obliterator. So really Obliterator, shouldn't be that hard for some to most werewolf decks to deal with, even when they don't run Dismember.

the keyword is there in place of all the text so the card doesn't become to wordy and it is wizards hope after a few sets they wont have to have the reminder text, like haste or flying, but according to the reminder text the creatures deal damage to each other the damage is still dealt and you still have to sac permanents.

Swift is correct I looked up the ruling on "Fight" and it is still a form of damage which causes obliteraters ability to trigger.

Ok then I am wrong and corrected then. Wizards, just like a D and D DM, is still LOGICALLY wrong, but is still right, even when they are wrong, because they are wizards, the DM.

Oh well, sometimes illogical wizards of the coast rules rulings work for you, like with metamorph copying a werewolf, and not being able to flip. And sometimes they don't.

Even without Nightfall Predator, my werewolf deck, usually handles obliterator just fine.

I suppose if you wanted you could possibly throw in Beast Within if you wanted unless you like the Incinerate better then by all means keep it in.

Beast Within gives, makes a 3/3 in place of the foe's creature it destroys. Also it cost 3 cmc, instead of 2, and it won't deal with Mirran Crusader. The only things its better for, is planeswalkers, artifacts, enchantments. But I can use Naturalize, and Mana leak, and Brimstone, and Incinerate, to deal with artifacts, enchantments, planeswalkers, without giving the foe the 3/3 that Beast within does.

Changes:

Turned 1 Brimstone Volley, into 1 more Incinerate, for 3 Incinerates, and 2 Brimstone Volleys

Changed, updated the Deck Breakdown, in the Deck Description.