what are the instant speed winning lines without crop rotating Rath's Edge over and over? Just Beast Within/Ass Trophy all their stuff and make infinite beasts to swing with on your next turn?

Sorry I'm still new with this deck. How do you make infinite beast tokens on your side at instant speed?

Legion564 During the loop to create abundant G mana ( Riftsweeper + Necromancy + Elvish Visionary + Culling the Weak ) it's shown that you can create abundant reanimations of Riftsweeper . By casting Beast Within on your own Necromancy you can generate 3/3 beasts to your heart's content.

My bad! Necromancy is no longer in the main of this build. In which case repeat the same & swap necromancy for savage summoning, using beast within on riftsweeper/any spare loopable permanent.

Why ramunap excavator over crucible of worlds?

thoughts on Inquisition of Kozilek ?

It hits most of CEDH cards (RiP. Stony, All the mana rocks, MM, Mana Dorks, Blood Moon, etc) except FoW, Hulk, Ad Naus and some others.

@n0bunga - I use Graham's Number since no pragmatic finite process will reach that magnitude. Just remember that it is a power of three, so you are working with an odd number of stuffs.

Nah, use TREE(3)

I personally like IoK, but what to cut?

For IoK, cut Duress .

@SynergyBuild - While I love me some TREE[3], it is not computable, and would thus not be valid in a tournament setting. While we know it is finite, we have no way (at the moment) of knowing anything about it. We do not even know its parity. We can compute Graham's Number, as evidenced by the recursive up-arrow notation we use to define it. Thus, it can be computed and even explained, making it allowable in a tournament setting.

I know that it's irritating and can cause some serious arm strain, but having been unable to provide a French judge with an explanation (in their language) of how to reach a definitive loop - I instead had to do the initial loop manually.

I believe it's best to discard and hold priority over the draw triggers by discarding dakmor an additional time until you have draw triggers greater than the number of cards in library; then just flip kozilek over and over. It's not uncommon to explain that you're going to repeat the process until there are a hundred draw triggers on the stack, resolving the excess by pitching kozilek. Theoretical numbers are fun - but sometimes the best way to explain 'repeat this X times' is to do exactly that.

After that I believe that the dredge combo is tournament-shortcuttable without splitting logic. But I'd recommend checking with the HJ, as if you argue with a judge over the legality you're likely to have difficulty. However if they are referred to the HJ then there's - not a lot they can do.

merrowMania are either really computable?

I mean, super off topic of the deck, sorry, however I am pretty sure that both number, though not infinite, are non-computable, and that they are so large that no current way of formatting subatomic particles even using binary could reach either number without being so large they collapse in on themselves and cause a black hole.

At least I was told that, I may be off.

@SynergyBuild - Computability refers to how (and whether) a recursive definition can be defined rather than if it is physically possible.
Graham's Number is just a power of three (a very large one, but a power nonetheless). Its recursive definition follows from how Knuth's Up-Arrow notation is recursive exponentiation, which is recursive multiplication, which is recursive addition, which finally is a recursive successor function (the "plus one" function), defined axiomatically to be a primitive recursive function and thus computable.
TREE(3) is the maximum number of entries into a sequence of trees with ever-increasing numbers of nodes (and a bunch of other stuff). We can prove that the sequence does end, but we cannot prove that we can calculate it recursively. We can potentially solve for it by drawing seemingly infinite sequences of trees, but we would have no way of knowing if we found the longest sequence. That is why TREE(3) is not computable.
An example I know better is the busy beaver function. The busy beaver function, abbreviated as BB(n), is the classic example of a noncomputable function. Its solutions (though proved to be defined on all inputs of n) are proven that, for any output of a computable function f evaluated at n, BB(n)>f(n), no computable function can be used to solve (and therefore recursively solve) for any value (technically I skipped a point of the n being above a certain size, but it is not relevant to the point). Hence, only lower bounds can be found for any value of BB(n).

Is there a reason Caustic Caterpillar is used over Krosan Grip ? Seems like Cursed Totem is more likely to hose us with the former and the latter is basically impossible to interact with.

Leptys This is kind of out of left field for sure, but I was hoping you might be so kind as to help me convert this deck to the format of 7point Highlander? (Rules for the format here: http://auseternal.com/7-point-highlander/) I've made a couple of attempts but would love some input from someone who knows the deck better than me. Reducing the deck to 60 cards and having build constraints from point availability adds some interesting wrinkles - also some cards banned in edh are available, like fastbond. Much thanks in advance.

n0bunga - Cursed Totem does stop Oblivion Crown lines since Crown give the creature the ability.

Hey guys,

any thoughts on Creeping Chill for closing up the game? It's an easy instant win to loop through our graveyard.

I'm new to the format so i would really appreciate if you could explain your answers.

@quasarmtg:

As n0bunga said, it requires too many extra steps to include a 4CMC card in the list. Being "free" also is a relatively marginal benefit, as we often have near-infinite amounts of mana when we start looping our outlet cards of choice.

Speaking of outlet cards, I've updated the relatively confusing "Creating Infinite Green" section of the combo with a small disclaimer that sheds light on some of the more conventional outlets used by people these days ( Ebony Charm , Beast Within , Emergence Zone etc.). I haven't mentioned all of them, but the confusion that comes out of reading on Rath's Edge loops when the current deck doesn't run it shouldn't be too prevalent now (at least I hope so).

I also reworked the quote blocks as normal quotes, as TappedOut has had problems with them lately. Should be easier to read the primer now. :)

Cheers!

-Lep

Dekkee If you search a small cmc to suffle libary i think Dread is a very good alternative for Kozilek and Umalog and can give you a nice protection if is in play...

Small announcement: I've updated the primer somewhat on the most relevant sections. The Combo section now includes the latest combo includes, as well as explanations of the different options you can go for when building your own list or combo. The primer's framework is still the same, but most discrepancies with older Gitrog stuff should be now cleaned up. The classic combo lines still are there, but they are noted on accordingly as outdated lines.

In addition, the Single Card Discussion, as well as the Budget Replacement sections have both been updated with most of the contemporary replacements, includes and excludes we've had up until War of the Spark! There's possibly some cards I haven't covered in SCD, but the biggest inclusions and options are covered from these past few years. The budget section is linked with kiebitzen's budget list He's Just a Frog on a Budget, as that's the most reliable, up-to-date budget guide at the moment for Gitrog. The older Budget Guide lists are still shown if you want to see them, but they should be copied on your own peril (especially the cheapest one that doesn't run any Eldrazi titans, I included an explanation as to why in my personal laundry list included in the section).

Enjoy! And hit me up if there are something that I didn't include (or explain well enough), be it anything for any reason!

Cheers, Lep

@Leptys:

Gotta ask, what's the rationale behind Finale of Devastation? Aside from an all purpose GSZ and reanimation tool, is it the haste you're banking on for the dudes you reanimate?

As for the deck, obviously it's crunchy. +1.

I've had a powered down version of this built since it came out, and thanks to Big Dumb Frog, I'm now known as the "Elon Musk of Skirge Familiars" in my playgroup because of the 4 playsets of Skirge I picked up on the dirt cheap before it went up in price.

Thanks for making my wallet mad at me Leptys. Lol

@simondiamond2012

Imagine Finale as a 3CMC Putrid Imp that also gets any other creature if you pay more into it (mainly Dark Confidant , Priest of Titania or even Ramunap Excavator if you have the mana open. The haste and pump function are merely a bonus, as the deck can win with plenty of things due to infinite spell recursion.

I know that showing the pimp is not the healthiest form of self-flattery, I just like them shiny openers. ;)

With the decks current form, is emergence zone the only way to win at instant speed?

Legion564 I think, however at instant speed you can still Assassin's Trophy your opponents boardstates to 0 permanents (you can blow up the lands they fetch until they have none).