I think that you don't even have to remove your own «you can't win» permanents, because in MTG there are rules with «layers». IDK them well, but here is an example for the card Recycle and the maximum hand size (taken from Gatherer's rulings): «If multiple effects modify your hand size, apply them in timestamp order. For example, if you put Spellbook (an artifact that says you have no maximum hand size) onto the battlefield and then put Recycle onto the battlefield, your maximum hand size will be two. However, if those permanents entered the battlefield in the opposite order, you would have no maximum hand size.»

So I'm not 100% sure, but there is a possiblity that the order in which the permanents arrive change everything when they usually contradict each other. So I think that you should check that with a judge or something like that! https://chat.magicjudges.org/mtgrules/

I actually have a Grixis deck that also gives permanents, but they are two-edged swords, meaning they help, but for a price. I think that it's my most casual deck (no destroy/exile effects, no counterspells) and it the current list is what I'd like it to be. I can, but don't win often with this deck (usually with Commander kills), but oh, I like it even if it didn't work as well as planned. And «bet life for an effect» cards can hurt players so much ( Pain's Reward and Illicit Auction in my deck, they can be gamechangers!

Grixis Twisted Group Hug (No Pain, No Gain!)

You may like Homeward Path to regain your creatures, Aminatou, the Fateshifter or any card in this list List of EDH Chaos Cards copy + suggestions for chaos. I also recommand much more tutors, especially Demonic Tutor and Mastermind's Acquisition , since they are stricly better than Diabolic Tutor . I' m taking note for Goldnight Castigator , but find it dangerous for oneself!

hey burferking, thanks for the input

you may be right about things like the Abyssal Persecutor abilities, i'll have to report back to you once i see it happen. i play on mtgo, so i'll see how that goes

your deck looks great, and i completely agree with you about the deck being casual. i like it for what it is as well. i usually play a lot of durdly-pillowfort-grouphug type decks, so this is just a slightly more chaotic take on what i'm usually already doing.

as for the card suggestions, i don't know how i forgot Homeward Path , i'll be adding that in asap.

Demonic Tutor will definitely go in once i get it on mtgo. it's a few dollars and i just haven't gotten around to buying it. i do wanna keep the tutors to a minimum, so i probably won't add more than that replacement. however, Mastermind's Acquisition is functionally the same card as Diabolic Tutor in commander. unless your playgroup allows you access to a wishboard i suppose

Oh, now I understand why you have some expansive cards like Three Visits ! You play online! Of all the players that I asked if I could search in my sideboard with Mastermind's Acquisition , all said «yes», but I never actually tutored outside a deck's library. I asked to see what kind of players they were and it was also to do some politics (to make them wonder what I'd tutor and «get in their head») lol. I asked a judge for the «layers» and was told those rules are in the section 613 of the comprehensive rules. I went only for the part intriguing us. From what I understood, you do have to check the order of the cards when their continuous effects contradict each other. They call that the «timestamp order», but if 2 layers enter at the same time, «dependancy» is checked. Usually the last effect «wins».

You could add some wheel effects in your game to make it harder for your opponents to find responses once you have set a winning combo. Many are in the chaos list I posted, like Teferi's Puzzle Box .

Since a couple of your cards change life, I would have suggested to add Platinum Emperion , but you wrote that you are avoiding pillowforting in this deck. It could be something to tutor with Living Wish , Death Wish (and regain the life lost with Tainted Sigil or Children of Korlis ) or Mastermind's Acquisition in your sideboard if you're in deep shit? haha

Hello there hellokitty6666666666666,

I really love this deck idea and i'm trying to build my own version of it! Soooooo, I have a few questions for you:

• if i could use fetchs, duals and so on they will be better for the deck?
• Ghostly Prison , Propaganda and Norn's Annex instead of Vow of Malice and Assault Suit for enhanced survivability?
• and for the same reason above, your opinion on Windborn Muse and Silent Arbiter ?

Thank you very much kind sir!

This one is the correct list of questions... (tappedout changed my form after the posting T_T) what do you think about the new land Hall of Heliod's Generosity ? if i could use fetchs, duals and so on they will be better for the deck? Ghostly Prison , Propaganda and Norn's Annex instead of Vow of Malice and Assault Suit ? your opinion on Windborn Muse and Silent Arbiter ?

hey Emozionador

Hall of Heliod's Generosity seems awesome, and I'd probably throw it in a ton of my decks once it comes out, i love enchantments.

When it comes to fetches and duals, yeah probably so. My landbase is weird because it was built on a budget and with what I currently already had, as well as enough forests to tutor up with my ramp cards.

As for the pillowforting cards, I'd consider the nature of the deck. The general idea of this deck is to shuffle everyone's permanents around, which would end up backfiring if you play a bunch of beneficial cards to protect yourself, and they end up being swapped with 0/1 goats at some point in the game. That's why a majority of the enchantments are kinda "global" effects that don't matter who owns it. Especially since a win condition is just having your opponents kill each other, or stealing your opponents big creatures, you really don't want the person across from you having your Ghostly Prison , or even a Silent Arbiter on the field at all probably.

A majority of the decks I build in edh are pillowfort themed, so I understand the want for putting them in. I don't think they would work best in my exact list, but a similar list where random swapping effects like Confusion in the Ranks are replaced with pillowforting cards would work nicely.

If you put up a list on tappedout and want some additional input, I could definitely help you there. Especially if you end up going more toward a pillowfort route, I could give a bunch of recommendations.

yooo this is just the kind of chaos-hug I want to see!

I've been sitting on a Karona, but I didn't know what to do with her... like, have you ever put her down and the table decides to name "Avatar" and 3-shot someone(you)?

Is the enchantress theme doing what you want? I'm thinking about more creature stuff. Random things like Boldwyr Heavyweights and the Hunted series seem fun.

Endless Whispers ?

Spawnbroker .

Vedalken Plotter .

Oh Wild Research .

If you have lands worth playing, Pir's Whim feels good.

Axis of Mortality ? Cruel Entertainment ?

Xantcha, Sleeper Agent , Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis , Athreos, God of Passage

Intimidate doesn't work with Karona... Vow of Flight or Vow of Wildness ?

Missing Akroma, Angel of Wrath for the lore flex.

hey Strangelove, thanks for the suggestions a ton

yeah i generally go enchant heavy, but especially in this deck because they're just generally harder to shoot down than creatures

Endless Whispers and Xantcha, Sleeper Agent are both amazing. i don't know how i missed over them. definitely both going in when i get a chance to tweak the deck a bit. probably Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis if i can find a little room, too.

i like Wild Research in a zedruu shell where i can kinda gimp it a little more with big mana and graveyard shenanigans

i should probably add in Pir's Whim , not sure why i wasn't already running it. i have a copy and generally use it in my sillier decks.

sadly Cruel Entertainment isn't on mtgo

you're absolutely right about Vow of Malice , and i should swap it with Vow of Flight

Strangelove

about death by karona, absolutely it happens if you aren't careful lol. i usually only play karona if i'm basically doing nothing in the game, or have a way to make her not attack me.

as for the extreme group hug and letting people cheat things out ( Braids, Conjurer Adept , Boldwyr Heavyweights , Hunted Wumpus , etc.) i think those could be a lot of fun and bring a bunch of chaos to the table. with this list, though, i kinda like the game going a bit slower and not exploding things too much. however, it would definitely be worth a try if you were planning on building a version of this deck yourself. i'd also recommend trying out the global ramp cards ( Mana Flare , Heartbeat of Spring , Dictate of Karametra etc.) if you were going that route

Super dope. I need a krumpus deck... something with a win con that group-hugs when people group-slug... I'm going for some budget replacements, but probably buying Illusions of Grandeur and Thought Lash .

What about Inverter of Truth vs. Leveler (too iffy)? Colfenor's Plans (too mean)?

Also, which are the $5+ cards you'd say are core?

Here are some of the cards I pooled.

Thanks mate!

Strangelove, if you're set on going budget, I like Inverter of Truth as a Leveler replacement. It's probably a bit more fun for the table as well lol. Personally for my taste for this particular list, Colfenor's Plans is a bit too mean, but I wouldn't suggest not adding it if you wanna add in a few spite cards.

As for cards over $5, I just went through and looked at all the prices tappedout has listed, and i think you hit the only two that are really necessary.

Yo kitty,

So I bought and built my Karona/ Hugs/ Politics deck... and it is fun. Oh so fun xD

Thanks for posting man! I always liked Karona, but I didn't believe it would work until I saw your list.

...I also rediscovered Mind Unbound ... figured you'd like to draw some cards until you donate it to someone else!

This is awesome. You might like these: Endless Whispers , Bronze Bombshell , Eater of Days , Forced Fruition , Psychic Possession , Mystical Tutor , Varchild, Betrayer of Kjeldor , Goblin Spymaster , Relic Robber

king-saproling, thanks! I definitely want to find room for a few of these, like Endless Whispers . Varchild, Betrayer of Kjeldor seems fun too.

This is a cool deck. I love the chaos aspect. +1 to Endless Whispers . It is part of a combo with Phage the Untouchable . When Phage dies, it comes into play under an opponent's control. That player loses, and you regain control of Phage. If you're playing with those cards, then you can sneak Phage into play without paying its mana cost (or losing the game) with Scroll of Fate .

I think it's kool that you're using both Karona and Phage in the same deck. Did you know that they are both Jeska?

The inclusion of Vows with Karona is essential, but you can also take advantage of her ability to boost the tribe of your choice, by including something like Conspiracy .

Oh sick interaction kpres. I've gotta slot in Endless Whispers for sure now. I'll include your tip in the description once I get around to adding and editing it in.

Add Blim, Comedic Genius to the deck? I felt the same way about Black cards and Zedru so I started a Blim deck as soon as I saw the card spoiled. I wanted to use Vampirism for years but Its a weird card. Perfect if you cast it on one of your creatures and then hand control to the poor fool with a Goblin deck.

carpecanum, Blim, Comedic Genius is a great suggestion, definitely gotta find room for him soon.

looky looky

https://mythicspoiler.com/stx/cards/codievociferouscodex.html

this might be a better commander you can donate him after you get stuff out and use your donate spells or activated abilities that donate