I'm really loving the deck idea! Maybe add Yeva, Nature's Herald for a nasty surprise when you tempt them while Ob isn't out, then flash him in when they pay costs to do a search (:

-Flickerwisp Conjurer's Closet Eerie Interlude and Restoration Angel can work with creatures like Avatar of Growth to get additional procs of their ETB. There are other flicker options as well if you want to go this route.

Given the nature of your deck, adding Painful Quandary to punish people further (with Wound Reflection that's potentially 10 life paid to cast a spell) could work.

Sanguine Bond and Exquisite Blood combo is a nice alt win con, with the latter giving you more survival as you drain your opponents' life.

For your Maybeboard, looks like you have a few very separate ideas going on. I personally like the black control you've got going, so you could build more on that. Bitterblossom and Mind Slash can be a harsh combo to have out for your opponent(s), especially if you just got rid of their hands with Mindslicer.

Hope this helps!

hkhssweiss, I think you're right. Working with the mass land advantage the deck is able to abuse leveraging Ob Nixilis, Unshackled built in punishment, I think it's not just a flavour win, but a great strategy to work with the landfall ability Ob Nixilis, the Fallen. It turns into an Ob Nixilis pain deck that seems pretty effective if I can get either one out.

Gold star for the Glacial Chasm recommendation. While a little out of my budget for now, it seems like a must have card to pillowfort so I can setup, especially because of the direct pain the Ob Nixilis strategy can cause. Then, if I get situated with a giant Ob Nixilis or an army of tokens from the landfall token generation, I could sack Glacial Chasm to The Gitrog Monster for a big swing... then play it again with Crucible of Worlds or Ramunap Excavator for another safe go-round!

Riftstone Portal is fantastic - a nice little extra tuning card. And you're right, both those lands extra good with the amount of "search for any land" cards in the deck.

When I build it and as I play it, I'll be keeping Azusa, Lost but Seeking, Oracle of Mul Daya and Exploration in mind for future investments to tune it up. Making sure I can play and replay Field of Ruin as many times as possible in a turn is a decent strategy :).

Good call on Birthing Pod. I'm actually looking for one for my Kresh deck right now, but it'd be perfect in here. Especialy (as you said) for chaining Ghave into Ob Nixilis! How perfect. Hmmmm, I guess if I sacrificed Veteran Explorer to chain into Ob Nixilis, Unshackled, I'd have to reveal it before they chose to search for the land or not, hey? I couldn't surprise them? I wonder how that all works on the stack and how I could abuse it - I guess I could still chain into Ob Nixilis with another creature out. Still good mana-ramp value if either Ob Nixilis is out and using Ghave to sac him. I'll think about that as the final deck list comes together.

thanks for reminding me about Heroic Intervention. It's come into my mind a couple times for this deck, just never when I was online to add it - I do have the card though, so it's a natural include!

Thanks for more great insight, hkhssweiss!

Thanks NeverCloud!

Ohhhh, so close with Yeva, Nature's Herald. I had actually looked at her, but unfortunately her text reads "green creatures". How ever, with that "nasty surprise" strategy in mind, I added Elvish Piper and Deathrender in. Protean Hulk, Eldritch Evolution, Pattern of Rebirth and, Birthing Pod (recommended by hkhssweiss) could all be great parts of the "Surprise Package" :). I like looking at it like that!

The flicker strategy would be great to bring more focus to, such a good point. I have an Eerie Interlude. With the amount of board wipes in my metta I was thinking Faith's Reward and Second Sunrise would double as responses and flickers (in a way) for my board-state. I could also use them after sacking Avatar of Growth through Ghave or another trigger. Flickerwisp, Conjurer's Closet and Restoration Angel will definitely get some serious consideration as I work with the final deck list!

Painful Quandary could be such a perfect include and really brings a paint theme to completion, especially if I go the "lands matter's" route with Ob Nixilis, the Fallen as an include. And with that direct pain strategy in mind, Exquisite Bond becomes a huge include. I appreciate the combo potential with Sanguine Bond as well, however at this point it seems like its only reason for being in there would be Exquisite Bond due to the lack of other life gain in here. Huge thanks for the Exquisite Bond idea though - that could be an easy 30 life in a turn, while swinging my opponents down! Awesome.

I think I'll end up working with two different builds of this deck because of different metta's I might play in. One group has less of an enjoyable view for control, so for them I think I'll go "land's matter". However, I really want to work on the control version as well to make a version that is more of a fast, interesting combo deck. I think Bitterblossom could work in the either one, especially with the fuel it gives Ghave and a few other sac engines in here.

Awesome, NeverCloud - your comment definitely helped it evolve a good step! Thanks again.

No worries goldlion, it's been really fun brainstorming ideas to see how this can work and with the help of the community it's been going swell. There are two versions of Glacial Chasm rn the V12 and Ice Age, V12 is around $9 while Ice Age on average is $3, TCG you can get a LP for $2.50.

Also since your going along with cheating boys in at instant speed. Quicksilver Amulet is another way to play along the stack. In response to search trigger you can activate it and drop Ob Nix :P

I love the strategy of the deck. It's so far removed from what you would expect from a Ghave deck that it'll take most people by surprise.

I personally like the land matters strategy but I feel the black control fits the flavor and theme better. Honestly I think you can have a good balance of both. Once you've got Ob Nixilis, Unshackled out there, I think ETB effects can be your friend especially since you should be able to abuse them. The flicker strategy works really well, there, but I would also suggest Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. He would be good on two fronts. First he'd be great for using ETB effects multiple times, but he's also great recursion to keep Ob Nixilis in play. You just need Ghave to remove the counter and you can bring him back again. If you can manage it you could create an infinite recursion loop with him, Ghave, and Ashnod's Altar or Phyrexian Altar. Unfortunately this would be a 5 card combo since you'd need Mikaeus, Ghave, Ob Nixilis, an altar, AND Avatar of Growth or someone similar. I'm not sure if there is anyone else who forces a search like he does, though.

I think you could easily pull yourself into a win with just Pattern of Rebirth using Protean Hulk if you add in a recursion combo. By using Karmic Guide + Reveillark + Saffi Eriksdotter + a sac outlet, you can continuously bring back Hulk and search for any creature in your deck that you want. You could grab Ob Nixilis, Unshackled and Fertilid or better yet Avatar of Growth. As long as you have a free sac outlet, you can continuously bring back Avatar and trigger Ob Nixilis until you drain everyone. Not to mention that they're great single card recursion on their own except that Reveillark isn't able to bring Ob Nixilis back.

Even with utilizing lands and black control, I do think it's a missed opportunity not to utilize Ghave's abilities in some way. If you're using him just for his colors, than any Abzan commander would work. You mentioned on my deck that you wanted to adopt some combos here. Which ones did you have in mind? Adding in some combo pieces with Ashnod's Altar like Bloodspore Thrinax or Ivy Lane Denizen would allow you to use Skullclamp, Mentor of the Meek, or Fecundity to draw into your win cons. Combos like this could also bee good for Ob Nixilis as well. Infinite sacrifices means you'd have an infinite/infinite flying demon. I know that's not the focus of this deck, but it could be an alternate interaction.

Excellent idea! I look forward to seeing how this all comes together.

Abzkaban

I really appreciate you going over this and bringing your Ghave expertise to the table.

btw, I think Avatar of Growth is the only etb trigger like that, at least that I've seen

I'm definitely hearing you with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and the ETB/recursion ability. He's a fantastic option for upping the effectiveness of the deck especially considering cmc's and tutors. For example, I could sack Protean Hulk to bring in Ob Nixilis, Unshackled, then after Protean Hulk is brought back, sack him again for Avatar of Growth. Ob Nixilis and Avatar they are both 6cmc, so fit in Protean's limitations! I could do the same with Fierce Empath though he just puts them into my hand. With Mikaeus on the battlefield and Eldritch Evolution or Birthing Pod in place, I could sac either Ob Nixilis or Avatar to bring the other in. Btw...Mikaus with Fertilid and enough mana for activate his search engine trigger? ohhhh man, match made in heaven!

Ultimately, Mikaeus, the Unhallowed becomes another node in the network the gives multiple new routes to the goal - that's what I need in this deck, so thanks for that!

I've seen the Karmic Guide + Reveillark mentioned often and see them ringing alarm bells for people when they are played. Someone's obviously getting up to something at that point! I'm going to play test them, but may keep them on the "maybe" for the sake of trying alternate routes out first. You are so very right though, the recursion package is going to be a big key to this deck hitting a rhythm. I know I'll end up trying them in here, but I'm going to dig for alternatives for now. ... even without those two in here though, Saffi Eriksdotter seems like a great add. I put together a rough version of the deck, set to private, just to play test it. I was missing having early drops that offer value and support to the machine while helping it move forward. Saffri could potentially be one of those.

As for other recursion options: what do you think of Meren of Clan Nel Toth + Skullwinder (who also deters attacks) and/or Eternal Witness? I'm thinking this could be a good alternative for bring back Pir's Whim or another way to get Field of Ruin back. Meren would also get that Avatar of Growth ETB again in a turn - getting up to 6 experience counters with Ghave would be no problem at all.

Also - one that has worked really well in play testing, because of the lands matters aspect, is Emeria Shepherd. She's amazing recursion actually. With all the great land spells I have that can drop larger amounts of land on the battlefield, I can bring in multiple plains at once to return creatures Avatar of Growth, enchantments (Pattern of Rebirth or Wound Reflection), or artifacts Ashnod's Altar back to the battlefield together for a final boom.

Ghave initially made sense with the built in sac engine for Pattern of Rebirth, for fueling fertilid, utilizing the counters Ob Nixilis got, as well as his colours. I also knew that he had such great value engines because the second EDH deck I ever built was Ghave (with many of the combos) and I figured, once it was time to start filling the deck out, I know I have helpful options available. It's started to make more and more sense though as things have progressed.

For example: If I get into the landfall token creation I'm producing good fuel for the sac engines like Ashnod's Altar, food for Skullclamp and triggers for Bloodspore Thrinax or Ivy Lane Denizen type engines and Mentor of the Meek.

Great point on the infinite sacs for infinite flying demon, I didn't even make that obvious connection with Ghave's infinites and his trigger... And let's not forget, he's got trample! So, unless they are blocking with a flying, first strike deathtoucher, that's game for that opponent. I foresee the deck being able to combo off killing all but one opponent in some instances, so having the secondary "death-con" built into the primary is pretty nice.

What I love about going the land-matters route is bringing in Ob Nixilis, the Fallen and taking the "pain" theme further with his landfall trigger. I could bring in mass lands from the big "search engine" ramp, token triggers to fuel ghave/altar/clamp/thrinax/mentor, then deal direct damage and grow a monster (unfortunately non-flying/non-trample). I do see the value in keeping some control in mind as well and am open to ideas for priorities there. Finding the balance will be the journey, for sure.

Thanks so much for taking the time Abzkaban! I'm glad you can appreciate the jankier version of Ghave. He screams for the efficient infinite combos, it's written all over him, and I'll never tire of playing that style of him...

Yet! his abilities and colours are pretty fun enablers and I have a few other ideas for him (though this is the jankiest of them so far). I'm excited to see this keep evolving, and with something that feels so unique in some ways, it's been pretty fun having folks like you step up with new insights that seem to take it to such a greater level. Another example is Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor's idea of Biorhythm... Something I don't think I've seen in a Ghave deck, yet Ghave can use it so well, and it brings everyone within easy reach of a Field of Ruin + Ob Nixilis, Unshackled search to death!

So again, thanks for being part of it :)

I still think that it should be kept away from running infinite recursion combo as that dilutes from the uniqueness of forcing someone to take damage from Ob Nixie. Ghave already has been an established reanimator/combo general, so this new refreshing perspective goldlion brought to the table is a very unique piece of work. In going back to this new take on Ghave, I still would think that the lands matter route will be the most efficient way of showcasing this take of build.

Just my thoughts, as I kind of want to see this deck being built and refined to perfection! xD

There is so much ideas being thrown about, love the help that all the community is giving!

I appreciate the kind words goldlion! I was also thinking that if you want to be really evil, you could run Mindslaver and/or Emrakul, the Promised End and then use an instant speed 'may search' ability (like Path to Exile) or their own search abilities against them. Though that avenue of attack might be a bit too janky....

goldlion

Glad I could help! I think I do agree with hkhssweiss to a point. The idea is so unique, and infinite combos are what would be expected from Ghave that it almost takes away from what you're trying to achieve. I was a bit hesitant to bring them up, but they are an option you have available. I definitely think Mikaeus, the Unhallowed will be a great addition to the strategy, though, and you might even consider running Karmic Guide or Saffi Eriksdotter for their single recursion potential in any case.

Meren of Clan Nel Toth is an interesting idea. Play around with her and see how she goes, but I'd say Eternal Witness should be a staple in most decks running especially if you need some graveyard recovery. Emeria Shepherd is a must include for land matters.

I think you can strike a balance between land matters, black control, and a few interactions with Ghave even if those interactions are not infinite. Really you should view Ghave as utility for doing what you need. Being able to trigger Pattern of Rebirth is a good example. Using him in conjunction with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed is another.

As far as draw power goes, I don't see Sylvan Library which is arguably some of the best draw power has at its disposal. You could also consider running Necropotence or Phyrexian Arena. I would say you could use lots of ramp to speed up the deck, but you do have a lot of search engines that will help you in that regard.

Just had a thought if you’re focusing on land matters and using both versions of Ob Nixilis. Have you considered Scapeshift? It could really hurt late game with Ob Nixilis, the Fallen in play, and it fits your theme since it triggers landfall abilities and puts lands in the graveyard to bring back with Crucible of Worlds. Just an idea.

Definitely a great fit for this deck Abzkaban; I have it in the maybeboard under the landsmatter strategy. Not only would it be great late game with Ob Nixilis, the Fallen, but even if Ob Nixilis, Unshackled was my main strategy in a particular game, it's actually a fantastic early game mana fixer (especially with Crucible of Worlds or Ramunap Excavator in play), and mana ramper with World Shaper or Splendid Reclamation. It layers well as those last two cards also get Field of Ruin back in a pinch, and Scapeshift will get Field of Ruin from the library if I don't have it in play yet while Ob Nixilis, Unshackled is within reach. The two strategies combine well together.

It's been pure value in the playtests - you know something belongs in the deck when you're always happy to see it on the topdeck.

I was thinking I'd share the test-pilot deck with you and a few others when I have it a little further as I would appreciate some help tuning it a bit more before making it public.

Would you be interested, Abzkaban? also, hkhssweiss, NeverCloud, Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor, SynergyBuild, Heliogabale, Nrdman? I think we might be able to make this "THE" Ob, Nixilis deck...

The biggest issue I have with the deck is consistency. I just think the number of tutors is a lot.

Do you think having Meren of Clan Nel Toth as the commander could solve this?

Think of all of the to-the-grave tutors, Final Parting or Jarad's Orders for example could fetch Ob to hand, Fertilid to the yard, and just start letting you go ham, 20'ing your opponents every turn.

What do you think?

Ah! I must have missed it in your Maybeboard. Good deal, then.

I’d definitely be interested in helping you test it out. I’m honored to be part of the process.

SynergyBuild - great point. I was also wondering about Muldrotha, the Gravetide. Though that commander is a little pricier and doesn't have the rhythm Meren of Clan Nel Toth does, he/she has blue :). But those are great points with the to-the-grave tutors. It could be just what's needed. I did think Meren could be at least an include in the 99 - but you could be right with her as the front-woman.

I've whittled down the tutors in the test-pilot deck, and it seems fairly consistent for a mid-range styled play. 75% of the time I seem to be getting the full deal going around turn 9/10, with some accounting for interactions. However, I do think the test-pilot version going now will need some things removed to add card draw and a few more interactive cards. I'll get it together and add you folks so the direction can be a little more clear and easy to communicate around - from there, changing to other commanders, landsmatter vs. control and other important decisions could be discussed.

Thanks for being on board Abzkaban!

I have found my varient gets it on like turn 5, but have considered trying to complicate things by getting a sac outlet and getting Avatar of Growth so that I can dole 30 a turn, you know?

goldlion I would be honored to partake in play testing the deck, I actually been brainstorming the deck even when I am working LOL! It's such an interesting build that is unique, jank, and no one had ever followed through making it before.

Hmm, imo SynergyBuild I would still consider keeping it an Abzan build, while yes Meren is great (I love her to death, I rebuilt her 5 times LOL), having access to white is a great boon and there are other "tempts" in this color. The reason I would still include white is mainly for the anti cards like Teferi's Protection, Silence, Faith's Reward, and Second Sunrise. These cards really help in a "lands matter" build.

Going off on tangent, an alternative commander that does well with the unique "play style" would be Muldrotha. In this variant, a "forced search" build abusing Mindslaver, as you can keep on doing this over and over with Muldrotha seems pretty viable in my mind.

Hope that gives some insight, what do you think Abzkaban, NeverCloud, Hi_diddly_ho_neighbor, Heliogabale, Nrdman?

I agree in keeping the deck in Abzan colors. I think those would be the strongest options available, and Meren can always go in the 99. I am intrigued by the idea of using Muldrotha, though. I feel like the “forced search” is the primary focus of the deck. While temptations are good, they still give an opponent the option to say no. If we force them to search, they have no choice but to be smacked by Ob Nixilis. Just my two cents.

Good point Abzkaban. I think this might be something we build to it's optimum for Ghave... Then it could be Muldrotha's turn down the road.

Here's what I'm thinking with the "Temptations" - there's two reasons why I included them: 1) flavour 2) the value.

But there's some interesting questions to discuss here.

Tha value lays in the fact that they are, I think, considerably cheap for their effects because they have a downside... the opponent gets to search. For example, Settle the Wreckage is pretty wild as a 4 cost instant board wipe for a single person, but that's cause they get to replace every exiled creature with a land - however, with Ob Nixilis out it's less likely people will want to search their library. Same with Assassin's Trophy. And to tap a forest and X mana to get X land? pretty good, except opponents get to get land as well with New Frontiers, unless they don't want to take that 10 damage. But this is where it gets tricky and makes me wonder if the value might not actually be there.

• With New Frontiers, how low a land amount would people not pay 10 life for? I think in the first 3/4 of the game, and depending on life total, opponents would probably be willing to pay 10 life for even just 3 land. But I get 3 land as well, so if we get equal land advantage and all my opponents lose 10 life, I guess that's alright.
• Settle the Wreckage could be too much of a mana advantage in exchange for the loss of 10 life.... It seems best if I use it on my own mass tokens? ohhhhh LANDFALL TRIGGERS!! pretty good in that case (thinking out loud). And I can cast it AFTER they do damage... Or if they are attacking with a couple voltrons... Or exile opponents mass attacking creatures with Aven Mindcensor out. And It's good when it gets to that round where everyone is about to win, soan opponent getting a bunch of tapped land on the battlefield doesn't matter if they are missing out on their big attack and passing the turn.
• Weird Harvest would be pretty ballzy, but then again so is Maralen of the Mornsong, but that's where Aven Mindcensor comes in.
• Ghost Quarter is just a good utility land against those power lands.
• Oath of Lieges didn't even make it into my test-pilot deck
• Path to Exile is just good
• Assassin's Trophy is just good

I do agree that they could go to make room in the deck. Which one do you think would be worth removing? I'd say Weird Harvest perhaps, though I could see it turning out well, especially with the cheats like Elvish Piper and Deathrender in play, the flicker type effects, etc... but perhaps too conditional?

SynergyBuild, you mentioned you had a varient of this? what does that version look like? I'm definitely curious!

goldlion

I would say Weird Harvest is too conditional and helps them a lot more than it does for you. I say New Frontiers is definitely worth it to keep, need to change the land base a little. We should run more than average basics, I'm thinking about the lines of at least 5 of each basics for now. That gives us at least a total of 15 total lands.

I'm going to do a little playtesting for now and I'll post to see what seems to be the weakest card that doesn't really work. Great way for explaining though!

I'm still pretty settled for the most optimum build for this unique deck is an Abzan/Lands Matter route, because at least that gives you the optimal amount of synergy with both Ob Nixies. Also lands are a lot more harder to interact with as well as dealing with unless someone decides to cast Armageddon but even then we have ways to deal with that in the form of Faith's Reward, Teferi's Protection, and Heroic Intervention.

But anyways off to testing tallyho!

Alright, so here are the results after play testing about 20 games of the current build. There was a lot of unplayable hands that I had to mull down pretty hard. What I find that it was really slow and as you said before, since the curve is a bit too high I don't find myself really doing anything until turn 3-4 and by that time there was not much interaction that I could do, also fyi Biorhythm is banned in commander so it's not viable way of winning. I replaced it everytime that I played with it as a Shaman of Forgotten Ways, on average while gold fishing you won't be able to do your expected line of winning until T13. Testing it as well, since we have a bunch of different ways of winning in this deck, it got way too convoluted and having a half of card combo in the deck made it not smooth while running. Mana base was also quite hard even with all the basic searches with the "tempts," in theory we should be running a lot more but not the entire land base, but with a lot of double color requirements, early game is quite hard and pushing it to mid game was still troublesome.

All in all, currently what needs to be done so far is find a game plan and build around that game plan. I did a revision for a lands matter one here is the link for it.

Try see how that one feels and lmk what everyone thinks about it!

Great points hkhsweiss!

I forgot to write it again in this new description, but remember that my play group allows for a single banned card.

Just saw SynergyBuild published a version of the deck and I see what you meant - if we build the whole deck with 100% focus on just the most effective interactions, it can get super turboed up. Even including the lands matter idea will slow it down to mid-level casual, where Meren of Clan nel toth enables a the full focus of recursion and then you've got a far heavier focus on tutors. Looks like you took a fairly competitive, low CMC Meren, and slipped a the few of the Doom Google cards in. I could definitely see it being the fastest and most effective way there! When you make it to the big leagues, be sure to shoot some credit my way ;) haha.

So that's definitely a route and something we can use for some inspiration. While adding to the interactivity, whitw slows us down, there's no disputing that. Let's keep going with it though to see what we can do to tune this version. I also so a Gitrog version with the field of ruin focus. And the Muldrotha. Slower versions and faster. It could definitely pick up as a janky but fun tricky side synergy I think.

Considering the idea of building something mid-level on the competitive spectrum, fun to play in the 9-16 turn game style, while still wanting efficiency and higher functioning: I can see taking out a couple of the temptations ( Weird Harvest ), definitely putting in some more mana ramp, dropping a few more things on the curve and a few more graveyard interactions.

What do you guys think? Should we put in mana rocks? Some ramp spells? Meren, I'd say.

Checking out yours now (hkhssweiss)

I agree with hkhssweiss. We need a game plan and then build to support it. I don’t have time today to do any testing, but this weekend I’ll play around with it and check the other version as well.

I personally like mana dorks better than rocks for ramp, and since we’re in green, we have a plethora of them. Birds of Paradise, Bloom Tender, Sylvan Caryatid, Elves of Deep Shadow, and Avacyn's Pilgrim are all good options. Searches like Cultivate and Sakura-Tribe Elder not only ramp well but get bonus points for flavor. What’s everyone’s opinion on Chromatic Lantern? Too slow? It’s great for color fixing.

I’ll do some play testing when I can. Until then I’ll have to stick with brainstorming with you guys.

I actually think an Karador, Ghost Chieftain is the optimal version. Even at the most competitive or casual levels.

I believe doing this well would need some value-oriented engine and a bit of a hatebears subtheme, think Birthing Pod value train, with Fauna Shaman, and even Survival of the Fittest if you want to go straight for the combo and win, or get good value cards until then.

Ramping into this with Elves at the 1&2 mana slots are really important there, and getting creatures like Mindblade Render or the less budget Dark Confidant for card advantage, as well as white hatebears with Gaddock Teeg, Aven Mindcensor, Vryn Wingmare/Glowrider/Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Loxodon Gatekeeper, Kataki, War's Wage, Hokori, Dust Drinker, etc.