MusicGoat18 says... #2
Chasmolinker, I have considered the cards you listed but I found Ilharg to be a little more useful in most cases. They are all lightning bolt-able and I don't like the idea of the extra {4} in the amulet. They may be lower cmc but I just like Ilharg a bit more. I will definitely think about Fling; I never really thought about that so thank you very much. Going off of that idea, might Thud work too, or does the sorcery part matter much?
October 11, 2022 9:49 a.m.
Chasmolinker says... #3
Yea. I really like how Ilharg brings it in tapped and attacking.
For Emrakul I don't think it matters since it can't really be destroyed by something like Murder and the like. Settle the Wreckage?? If they somehow survive the attacks of both Ilharg, the Raze-Boar and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, You could play Thud second main phase. I don't think Sorcery speed has any real hindrance on the effect unless you find Diabolic Edict in your meta.
October 11, 2022 10:01 a.m.
zapyourtumor says... #5
You definitely don't need Thud or Fling in my opinion. After swinging with Ilharg and Emmy, any jundy midrange deck should be able to straight up win. Also, Thud being sorcery speed is definitely relevant because there's more stuff that can kill emrakul now, the biggest offender being Solitude.
I would recommend adding just straight up good cards that happen to be discard outlets, as opposed to mediocre cards like Merchant of the Vale which is only good as a discard outlet. Spyro is great for sure, but I'd also recommend Fable of the Mirror-Breaker Flip and Liliana of the Veil.
I think you should also run Wrenn and Six if you can afford it. W6 is obviously really strong in midrange decks but also works well in combo-midrange type decks like creativity, because she guarantees your land drops making it easier to hit 5 lands for Ilharg. She also synergizes well with many of the discard outlets I suggested, specifically Fable and LotV.
Grim Flayer allowing you to put Ilharg in the graveyard seems okay, but that requires Ilharg to be in your top three cards. I feel like Tarmogoyf might be straight up better, and even if you discard emrakul you still have your opponents graveyard's card types. It kind of sucks that you only have 3 sorceries though, but if you run walkers like wrenn it is probably fine.
Lastly, I think Fury is stronger in these kinds of decks than Grief. Since you aren't all in on the combo, I don't think you need Grief's combo protection and Fury's midrange power seems more valuable.
January 17, 2023 5:59 p.m.
zapyourtumor says... #6
I also looked into some other legendary creatures in Jund colors that you could maybe reanimate that would still be strong in a normal midrange deck. I was thinking this would be helpful in making Goryo's less of a dead card, while making sure the creatures were good enough to hardcast. I particularly was interested in cards with ETBs.
Reanimating a Soul of Windgrace gives you two lands immediately which synergizes with a lot of your discard stuff, and the card is strong enough on its own that a lot of modern jund lists run it (both saga and sagaless versions). Titania, Protector of Argoth can also be good if you reanimate it on t3 with a fetch, you get 2 5/3s.
Of course if these cards dilute the deck too much it's probably fine to only have 4 Goryo's targets, since you have a lot of ways to discard it.
January 17, 2023 8:55 p.m.
MusicGoat18 says... #7
zapyourtumor, thank you very much! Yes, after removing Griselbrand I've been at a loss for the other uses of Goryo's besides Ilharg. I was considering Tarmogoyf and LotV/Mirror Breaker, I just needed a budget placeholder since I've been investing in my Muldy Gravetide Commander (oof). I never thought of Windgrace or Titiana, so thank you for that! I might get a W6 playset in the distant future lol; I doubt it, but I would totally get some if a reprint occurs.
January 18, 2023 8:21 a.m.
zapyourtumor says... #8
I'd say the one thing that does feel kind of bad is you don't have the turn 2 Goryo nuts combo play after cutting Merchant of the Vale (besides thoughtseizing yourself), but that combo requires 4 cards + 2 lands in your hand anyways which is already 6/7 (Merchant, Goryo's, Ilharg, and Emmy). It kind of sucks that all of the 3 mana discard outlets (Spyro, Fable, Lili) are super strong, but there aren't many good 2 mana options with no Faithful Mending or Tainted Indulgence. If you happen to think that you need a 2 mana discard outlet I would say the best one you could run is Bitter Reunion. Unfortunately adding that card would dilute the midrange plan significantly -- its all up to your choice on how you want to balance the reanimation combo with the midrange grindiness.
January 18, 2023 5:12 p.m.
zapyourtumor says... #9
Also another comment is that you don't necessarily need Soul of Windgrace or Titania since you can reanimate Emrakul at instant speed after discarding her while her graveyard shuffling trigger is on the stack.
January 18, 2023 5:13 p.m.
MusicGoat18 says... #10
zapyourtumor, I'll do some play-testing with Bitter Reunion. Also, since Emrakul can do without the boar, should I cut one or two Ilhargs? Maybe more? And thanks again!
January 19, 2023 7:53 a.m.
MusicGoat18 says... #11
My question is, from the following, which is better: Haggle (from Merchant of the Vale), Faithless Salvaging, Cathartic Pyre, Cathartic Reunion, Bitter Reunion, or is there something better that I'm missing? I've been thinking of the different decks played in modern, and I would like assistance in deciding which one is best to play.
January 22, 2023 2:04 p.m.
zapyourtumor says... #13
Yeah so the best discard outlet, Faithless Looting, was banned a while ago (victim of HOEgaak that disgusting deck).
The best 2 mana discard outlet in red being played in most reanimation decks is Bitter Reunion currently, because after Persisting an Archon of Cruelty you can give it haste and attack for another trigger which is backbreaking. Here, the second ability is probably less relevant since Goryo's gives haste, but I still think it's better than the other options. The main issue with Faithless Salvaging is that its both slow and you're also going down on card advantage, UNLESS: you play it with cards in your hand, and then cast all cards in your hand, so you only draw a card on rebound (breaking even). Or you cast it with no cards in your hand, drawing two cards over two turns (generating card advantage).
Unfortunately many of the other good discard outlets are in blue, examples being: Prismari Command, Faithful Mending, Tainted Indulgence, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip, Ledger Shredder, etc.
As I said the kind of discard outlet you run generally depends on what you want the deck to do: I'd say they are all tradeoffs between speed and power. On the fastest side we have Haggle, which can be used for turn 2 hasty Boar + Emmy although it requires 4 cards in hand. Somewhere in between but still towards the faster side we have all of the 2 mana discard spells in red. And then further toward the power side we have cards like Collective Brutality. And further still we have all the generally good cards like Fable, Spyro, etc. So basically you need to decide what balance between speed and grinding power you want the deck to have. To try and make it easier I rated all of the options in jund colors I think are worth considering along three criteria: speed, power, and flexibility. Given that this deck is a grindy midrange deck at heart (or at least I think that is what you are aiming for), speed can be useful but power and flexibility are more important in my opinion.
Speed 9 Power 1 Flex 1: Merchant of the Vale (1 mana discard spell, fast but that's all there is)
9, 2, 4: Bone Shards (also fast, but generally more relevant mid/late)
7, 5, 1: Cathartic Reunion (powerful but inflexible, seen in dredge)
7, 2, 4: Cathartic Pyre (flexible but weak)
7, 3, 2: Thrill of Possibility (less all in version of Cathartic Reunion)
7, 3, 4: Bitter Reunion (more flexible vers. of Thrill)
7, 5, 8: Collective Brutality (most flexible 2 cmc discard outlet in BRG)
6, 3, 4: Faithless Salvaging (slow, weak, only generates CA in late game)
5, 6, 5: Territorial Kavu (even slower because requires attack trigger)
4, 7, 7: Seasoned Pyromancer (both powerful and flexible, can generate bodies or CA)
3, 7, 8: Liliana of the Veil (powerful and flexible, threat + removal + discard)
2, 8, 8: Fable of the Mirror-Breaker Flip (slowest 3 cmc option, tons of grind power + flexibility)
Additional notes:
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Bone Shards can be used to sacrifice an Ilharg or Emrakul, and if you sacrifice Ilharg it won't get exiled in order to reanimate it again next turn.
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Bone Shards, Cathartic Reunion, Thrill of Possibility, and Collective Brutality have the discard as part of the casting cost, so you discard the card(s) even if the spell is countered. Merchant of the Vale, Bitter Reunion, etc do not.
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Collective Brutality is maindeckable but the versatility makes it stronger in the sideboard.
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Territorial Kavu requires at least 4 basic land types to be effective.
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Repeatable/delayed discard effects, such as Liliana of the Veil and Fable of the Mirror-Breaker Flip allow you to discard Emrakul the turn after you cast them and instantly reanimate them, spreading out your mana over two turns.
January 22, 2023 3:54 p.m.
MusicGoat18 says... #14
zapyourtumor, thank you very much! You have been a great help, and I appreciate your time and effort in helping me. I have been leaning toward Thrill since I can cast it during an opponent's end step. Also, the haste part in Bitter Reunion isn't as relevant and requires etb to trigger the discard and draw. I completely forgot about Collective Brutality tbh as a way to discard. I definitely will make room for it in the sideboard. I will continue to playtest the given options and keep an eye out for better ones as sets release.
January 22, 2023 6:30 p.m.
MusicGoat18 says... #15
I am struggling to fill in the two open slots in the deck (I have 58/60 cards). May I ask for assistance?
Chasmolinker says... #1
I like this idea. I've got four cards for you to consider/playtest: Champion of Rhonas, Elvish Piper, Howlpack Piper Flip, Quicksilver Amulet.
I also highly recommend a playset of Fling
October 11, 2022 9:18 a.m.