read the card again. You MAY repeat the process. Once you have 6-7 big fat tramplers on the field, you don't have to repeat it, because 55 points of trample is GOING to kill you, bar turbofog. In surging the deck too much would put you at risk of a mill loss, especially from Nephalia Drownyard .

Ah yeah, I misread, thanks for pointing that out :Dnvm then xD

@IronSeal @Grimgrinner looks like you guys figured it out, however, unless I'm playing against Turbofog or instant-speed mill (both of which aren't that common archetypes) Akroma's Memorial gives everything haste (and flying and trample) and pretty much guarantees that I'll be able to win same-turn.

This is fine because according to the rules of the game, you don't lose if your library is empty, you lose if you have to draw a card but you are unable to due to an empty library. Since Primal Surge does not involve drawing, if I put my entire deck on the field I will still have 1 turn to win, and on my next turn I would lose during my draw step. So hopefully that answers IronSeal's original question.

The situation you describe actually does come up every now and again, not just if both surges are in my hand but also if one of them is either exiled or tucked away with Mosswort Bridge , or if the second one just happens to be really low in my library. If I am playing against Turbofog or mill, I'll probably surge until I find the memorial and enough firepower to win, then stop. Craterhoof Behemoth will usually get me there as well, sometimes all by his hasty self.

Thanks for the comments!

I seriously want to see the epic flop of the godhand, primal surge, next card primal surge, surge ends.

I'm sure it could still pull through regardless.

@vbcnxm_ That exact scenario has never happened to me, but I have done T3 Primal Surge into Forest, Forest, Arbor Elf , Forest, Primal Surge . It was pretty disappointing.

Liege of the Tangle could be cool. +1

Maybe Avacyn, Angel of Hope too

Thanks for the suggestions man! But what would Avacyn, Angel of Hope be for? She's white!

For when Primal Surge goes off in case of board wipe at or u don't hit Akroma's Memorial . I have seen Fog then Day of Judgment or Wrath of God , or Quicken + Supreme Verdict .

All of those board wipes are sorceries. Plus this deck aims to go off extremely fast before they have the mana to cast those.

I know they are sorceries but Quicken changes that. Then if they Fog which is one mana and an instant then their turn they doj or something.

I've seen Fog stop a Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Restoration Angel combo then boom.

@Deathsbaron you make a good point, but I simply don't think that playing Avacyn, Angel of Hope is worthwhile, because she is off-color and I simply am unable to cast her without Primal Surge . She is a 100% dead draw most of the time.

As for board wipes, if my opponent happens to have one set up with Quicken , as unlikely as that is (especially since Quicken is hardly played), then I'll just chalk it up to bad luck and take the loss. That said, I'll still have a TON of mana and probably a Garruk Wildspeaker , so I daresay I might even still have a shot at winning.

As for TurboFog , it's simply my worst matchup and there's not much I can do about it except race. Luckily, it's not a very common archetype. Do you have any sideboard suggestions against Fog ?

Besides like a card like Fresh Meat not off the top of my head but Avacyn's Pilgrim or Fertile Ground could help cast her if need be. I'm only suggesting from what I've seen or played against online and at meta. It's hard to make many suggestions on this deck as great as it looks lol.

Terastodon could help stop it too.

I do know the best thing u can do for this deck as I and many others do, for a tooth and nail deck, is add 2xBoseiju, Who Shelters All . That is the best suggestion I can give you

@Deathsbaron thanks for the tips, but none of those can help against Fog , which is what I need suggestions for. As for Boseiju, Who Shelters All , I don't think it's appropriate because this deck really really needs colored green mana to function, as well as Forests to target with Arbor Elf and Utopia Sprawl .

Terastodon may fit in my sideboard... thanks for the tips!

Fling ? =D

with some Stomping Ground in sideboard and no problems, fog ! ;)

Boseiju, Who Shelters All may be a good sideboard for control decks. Terastodon can help u when it hits the board, if u Primal Surge turn 3 or 4, you blow up their lands so fog and their turn can never happen. Best Primal Surge deck ive seen so far it will be hardto make this much better than it is.

-2 Mosswort Bridge +2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx . cause it would be sweeter to draw a nykthos card instead of a mosswort bridge card, every single time, when playtesting this deck.

The problem with this deck is it is very easy to predict and prevent. You ramp and ramp to one creature, then that creature just gets slaughtered. You also have to consider that before you get that creature out, you are constantly getting hit as your ramp pieces don't want to get destroyed otherwise you lose. If you get hit by a board-wipe, you have an extreme difficulty from recovering. I can't make too many suggestions to this, as that would mean changing the deck entirely to something like G/W hexproof.

But I'll try, though I'm pretty sure I made a suggestion to this deck earlier, because I see Privileged Position in there ...

I suggest removing your desire to play that turn 3 win. While it's fun when it comes out, when will it come out? Against RDW, that Arbor Elf will get burned. Against control, it is very easy to counter your Primal Surge , or any other spell your going to play to proc the combo. Then you have Path to Exile , Go for the Throat , Pithing Needle and many more to deal with. Then you have to deal with the fact you need 7 perfect cards in your hand, which isn't going to happen. Even if you do, Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek will seriously kill you.

So, that being said, Primal Surge should go. If you really want to play it, go elves. Elvish Archdruid would get you there really quickly. I would remove Utopia Sprawl and Voyaging Satyr , and then put in Sylvan Caryatid and go halvies with Llanowar Elves and Elvish Mystic (to prevent Pithing Needle ). This way you'll have a ramper that won't get removed or Pyroclasm ed easily, and have another ramper that fits with your chroma.

I would also remove Mosswort Bridge and Akroma's Memorial . Mosswort Bridge will at most times just end up taking some important ramp to the bottom, or you'll end up with a worthless card for your situation. If you want to run Akroma's Memorial , run Eldrazi Monument instead and stick it as a 2 of. If you don't like the sacrifice, this is considering you'll put in all the rampers, then just add more Privileged Position s.

Thrun, the Last Troll should definitely be added, as having a card that has hexproof and anti-U along with anti board wipe is really useful. Troll Ascetic , Terra Stomper and Witchstalker are also really good cards to use. I would remove Elderscale Wurm and Craterhoof Behemoth for them, along with putting Primalcrux as a three of.

For another card that I don't see all too often, Heartwood Storyteller should be interesting to try out. I don't have enough experience with it though so it's up to you to play-test it. As for resilience against other decks, you should definitely run Vines of Vastwood . Having this would really help you out early as it would protect important rampers. For another card, Eternal Witness might be worth trying out, as anything can be re-used and you'd only have to worry about it in U-control match-ups.

I really like this deck. If they run control, have Ranger's Guile sideboarded.

Vines of Vastwood is better than Ranger's Guile . (I tend to run one of both in my green edh decks tho)

@Femme_Fatale, thank you so much for your comments! If it's true and you've already looked at this deck before than my apologies, it's changed quite a bit over time.

The turn 3 win is definitely a fun possibility with this deck, but it's not something I go for or I expect, and I've tried to design the deck to be strong and consistent without it.

That said, I'm reluctant to let go of Primal Surge simply because it's usually such an unstoppable bomb. The way it got into the deck in the first place was that I was playing Tooth and Nail , but realized that no matter what I grabbed I'd have to wait a turn for summoning sickness. Craterhoof Behemoth sometimes did the trick, but there had to be some other creatures out too. I realized that for just one more mana and an Akroma's Memorial floating around, I could pretty much do the same with Primal Surge but one turn sooner, so I went for it. When all of this came together, I was not trying to make this a combo deck; one day I was simply thinking, "I wonder how fast I can ramp into a Surge?" and I thought about the possibilities until, to my own surprise, I found it could be done on turn 3! Shortly afterwards, it actually happened to me in a game, so I decided to share it in the deck description. But it's certainly not an integral part of the deck.

Generally, I am very willing to make tweaks and updates to this deck but I'd rather not totally refactor it. That's why I'm not going to take your suggestion of replacing all the ramp with elves. I agree that elves are probably the best ramp in the game and are more proven than mine, but what I do like about the land aurus is that they are resistant to removal. A deck like RDW can burn my Arbor Elf s all it wants; I'll still have Overgrowth and Utopia Sprawl .

Here's some stuff I'll definitely consider. You mentioned Thrun, the Last Troll , and he's actually already been in and out of this deck twice already. Currently I'm of the opinion that Wolfbriar Elemental is better against most matchups, but I'm always willing to give Thrun another shot. He's always on my mind when I playtest.

Vines of Vastwood is the single card whose absence due to Primal Surge pains me the most. It is quite literally the only sacrifice I made in order to run Surge; to take Vines out of my deck. However, Surge can always be subbed out, which means Vines can always be subbed in. How would you recommend I modify my sideboard to make room for 2-4 Vines of Vastwood ?

As for Terra Stomper , that was in my sideboard for a long time, until it got replaced by Leyline of Lifeforce . Thoughts? Gaea's Revenge has been suggested as well.

I am open to removing Mosswort Bridge ; I hate slow lands just as much as (and probably more than) the next guy. The thing is, every time I start to think I might want them out, a Bridge wins me a game and I wonder how I could ever remove them. They've mana screwed me a few times, but with only 2x it's been very rare. My point is, I'm willing to take them out once I feel they stop performing because I agree that on paper they seem underwhelming, and they seem like a win-more. But in practice, they continue to save my ass enough times that I'm leaving them in until I go through a big enough drought.

Heartwood Storyteller is an interesting suggestion, I'm reluctant to try it due to all the Enchantments I'm running, but it seems like it could really screw control. But I'd probably rather run Leyline of Lifeforce against control.

Thanks again for taking the time to respond and for all your suggestions. I didn't expect to be as stubborn about most of them as I ended up being; I guess I didn't realize how attached I'd grown to this version of the deck skeleton. Thank you for your help and your time!

I understand running the enchant lands instead of the elves, even if they don't help Khalni Hydra , but at the very least swap Voyaging Satyr for Sylvan Caryatid , as it helps slow down aggro decks a considerable degree, and it is really hard to remove because of its hexproof and 3 toughness.

Thrun, the Last Troll should replace some of your higher costing creatures. Wolfbriar Elemental should be kept in there because it is a creature that you can play whenever you want, without losing tempo from playing it late game. A versatile creature like that is very useful, and the only other card that I can think of that can translate it's early beat to a beat late game like that is Death's Shadow . When playing against it, it was very hard to come back from it as it would take 2-3 removal spells from just one creature play. So play both Wolfbriar Elemental and Thrun, the Last Troll and remove Craterhoof Behemoth and Elderscale Wurm for the Thrun, the Last Troll , you'll find that you can play a lot more creatures and have more versatility against a lot of decks.

I was thinking Terra Stomper main-board. Reason? An 8/8 with trample is definitely above the 6 mana curve. It just has more bang for your mana because it can't be countered. In fact, it might be better to use him instead of Khalni Hydra , as you'll rarely have the chance to have 3 or more creatures out with the amount of removal in the format by the time you get to play him. Gaea's Revenge , similar idea, but it can't be removed by target removal, which is really important, especially with haste. That way even if they have a wrath in their hand you WILL still get your value for playing that creature. Unless they keep like, an instant speed Earthquake with 6 mana on hand or something.

I do however see people suggest the Craterhoof Behemoth over the Khalni Hydra though, and here is there argument. It is technically at the very least a 6/6 with haste and trample the moment it comes out. Which again, something with haste at that power is really quite powerful. Especially when tied with trample, and even better it has the potential to buff all of your mana dorks to become major threats. Even if you only have one mana dork, it now becomes a 3/3 with trample. Having two they both become 4/4's with trample ... so on and so forth.

You should generally be winning without needing Primal Surge . A green draw engine would do you better as it would be cheaper. Greater Good , Momentous Fall , Explore , Garruk, Primal Hunter , Harmonize and Soul's Majesty are all some to consider. I suggested Heartwood Storyteller because it's like a pseudo-Dark Confidant for green. It does well against mid-range, control, combo, RDW, mill and discard for it grants you a heavy draw engine against those decks. Unlike Dark Confidant , you still get to draw a card if they burn it the turn after, and it grants you a really heavy draw engine if they can't seem to find the proper answer to it, but keep playing other spells anyways.There are plenty of reasons why it doesn't see as much play as a Dark Confidant does, but at the very least, play-test it against a wide variety of decks and see how it works for you.

If you don't want to run a draw engine, definitely run Vines of Vastwood . The hexproof grant and the potential to make it really beastly at instant speed is really useful. You could easily surprise kill your opponent with a mana dork this way.

Or even better run both! A draw engine and an anti-removal are all good things to use and it may be more beneficial for you to run both.

I used to play Mosswort Bridge , and I've always wanted to be able to play a regular land instead. Because if they decide to destroy the creature that is granting you the 10 power, you've just wasted two lands which you could have potentially played something from your hand. And you've also wasted that early turn draw which could have been game-winning in and of itself.