snowfox54119, Corpse Dance has Buyback. It is 100% recurrable.

SamsWrath buyback lets you reuse it I'd you cast it from your hand. If we flip it into the graveyard, it's dead.

Senserazer, Yawgmoth's Will is a thing.

Also, Priest of Gix , Cathodion and Su-Chi offer pretty awesome value if flipped from the bottom with Grenzo.

Yawgmoth's Will is also a dead card if flipped. The deck wants to minimize dead flips. That's the whole premise or the deck.

SamsWrath, I think you are missing part of the point of this deck. The more noncreature cards we throw in the deck, the more chance we have of wasting two mana. This deck wants to minimize those chances in every way possible by ensuring any sorcery or instant it runs can be recurred from the graveyard by itself (thus we run Dread Return ). If we throw in Corpse Dance , Yawgmoth's Will and Demonic Tutor , then we're just asking for some dead flips that don't immediately impact the board. So I typically pass on any noncreature card unless it's an immensely powerful artifact (because it can be recurred through several of our creatures) or it can cast itself from the graveyard (flashback, retrace, etc.).

As for Priest of Gix , he was removed as of the most recent build for Emrakul's Hatcher who is much more versatile. Cathodion doesn't in and of himself provide the mana for more flips and requires a sac outlet (which we typically get through flips), so he seems a little slow to me. I either want creatures to have immediate impact once they hit or provide immense value for a delayed payoff; anything that doesn't meet either of these criteria is cut. As for Su-Chi , he's 4 power and I have a whole section in the primer detailing the importance of Grenzo being at X=1 (flip creatures of power 3 and below).

Arcbound Reclaimer , however, has been on my radar for a while. I'm not a huge fan of putting the important piece to the top of our deck and potentially delaying when we can play it, but overall it could be worth it. I'll add it to the Maybeboard and will do some testing with it.

snowfox54119, I saw your most recent change where you took out Krenko, Mob Boss , and I gotta say, I'm really confused. In my experience with this deck, (which to be fair, is substantially less than you), I've found that Krenko has been a key win con. While I also haven't been able to assemble Thornbite Krenko, I've found that often, even activating his ability once means the game. With any sort of sacrifice combo, you can generate ridiculous value, even off of only 3-4 goblins. An Ashnod's Altar or Skirk Prospector means extra Grenzo activations, and a Deathbringer Thoctar or Whisper, Blood Liturgist can give you crazy value in other ways. The added benefit of flipping on your opponents end step also gives them less time to draw into an answer. So basically, you do whatever works best for you, but if I were you, I'd give Krenko, Mob Boss another shot. :)

apohl13, Yep, it was definitely a hard choice, and I never claim that any of my changes are permanent as a card can easily fall back into favor. Personally, I haven't had many good experiences with Krenko due to my meta knowing how scary one activation can be and immediately killing him on sight. So I switched him out for Kuldotha Forgemaster that so far hasn't caught their attention.

However, I do still have Krenko, Mob Boss in my Alternate Meta Picks list; and if you have good success with him, then keep playing him!

I do have a feeling Krenko will eventually find his way back into my own list; but it will require more testing on my part to see what he can replace to re-enter the deck.

snowfox54119, that's understandable. I'd like to know your opinion on Puppeteer Clique though, because I've found it to be rather useless when its flipped on an opponent's end step. What are your reasons for playing it?

apohl13, Puppeteer Clique is one of my favorite cards in the deck. It has a couple of key features:

1. It has persist, meaning it can create an infinite digger loop by itself with Ashnod's and Epitaph, so all you need is 1 creature in any opponent's field for infinite mana.

2. It allows me to do a low of crazy things with other people's stuff. See that Reclamation Sage in your opponent's graveyard? Grab it out!

3. It serves as hate. It can remove targeted creatures within graveyards at instant speed with a digger loop, and then you can let the creature exile at end of turn. I had this card carry me in my last game against a Meren player, cause every value creature she targeted, I just took control of and then exiled.

You may have the occasional dead flip with no other creatures in opponent's graveyards, but I have had very few instances where this card didn't pull immense value you from its arrival.

I found a combo not listed in your combos segment. Grenzo, Dungeon Warden + Heartstone + Zulaport Cutthroat effect + Workhorse + Reito Lantern / Epitaph Golem

snowfox54119, does no one in your meta play Grafdigger's Cage or Wheel of Sun and Moon ? The more creature heavy Grenzo runs the more vulnerable he is to either of those cards. Since you aren't running any Instant Speed removal if one of those cards resolves you can't cheat in any creatures with Grenzo. At that point you'd be hoping to draw Goblin Cratermaker , Meteor Golem or Tuktuk Scrapper so you can hard-cast as removal.

JustcallmeSoul, Yep! And there are actually a whole lot more combos in the deck. If I tried to list every possible infinite interaction, it would be a massive section. So I focused on the primary combos to look out for, but you will definitely find new ones every time you play the list, which is just another reason why I love this deck so much.

SamsWrath, none of my playgroup has picked up either of these cards, and neither of them would make me restructure my whole philosophy of the deck. It's meant to be a gambling themed, powerhouse. If someone plays Grafdigger's Cage , then I'm definitely slowed, but I have multiple answers and ways of finding those answers.

As for Wheel of Sun and Moon , that card is just straight up the worst card for Grenzo no matter how you build your list. The only possible removal for it is expensive artifact removal anyways. However, I've personally never seen this card in all of my games against a vast swath of players. It's not a common pick for graveyard hate since exiling is so much more consistent and efficient in permanently removing threats. And since exiling replacement has no effect on Grenzo, I've never been too hindered by the most stringent of graveyard hate. You should build the list and try it if you're so unsure. I think you'll be surprised by its resiliency to bounce back.

The biggest issue I've run into is Azorious Control style decks. Namely, Rest in Peace . Brutal card, so hard to answer.

Other issues: The manabase feels a little brutal, Particularly lacking any repeatable recursion. I know it is another possible dead flip, but Crucible of Worlds would go a long way toward helping with this. At least with Crucible when you see your Inventors' Fair or Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx hit the pile you don't just cringe. Might also be worth adding Cabal Coffers to take advantage of the obvious combo with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth . I realize these are spendy fiddly bits that are likely to interfere with your budget, full foil theme, or occasionally game speed, but I really feel that the addition of these cards would add a comfortable amount of synergy to the deck without it feeling overpowered. Just assure people that when you blow up lands it won't be by cycling Strip Mine or Wasteland over and over.

I wish I had more Scry effects when I'm playing and haven't found Viscera Seer , but Sensei's Divining Top feels bad, and injecting too many questionable scry artifacts to the deck only makes me want to add Daretti, Scrap Savant and Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast and at that point you're playing a very dangerous game, threatening to put 50$ directly into the pile with no way to retrieve it.

Love the deck, and intend to keep playing it on MTGO. It feels like a deck I can happily sit down at a "Casual" table with, and also bring to "Competitive" queues.

Thanks.

Soul

JustcallmeSoul, Glad to hear you've been enjoying it! Rest in Peace can be damaging at times, but I just want to make sure you're aware that it doesn't stop Grenzo's ability. So don't let any friends convince you that your flips don't work anymore, because Grenzo's ability still finds the card despite the replacement effect.

As for Crucible of Worlds , I've definitely considered it, and will probably place it in my Maybeboard. I'll have to test it out, but I agree that it would help negate those feel-bad moments of flipping a Nykthos.

I also agree with the importance of Scry, but as you've stated, the powerful scry sources are limited and often arent worth replacing the power we already have.

snowfox54119, this deck wouldn't work in my meta. My meta is too fast and just about everyone runs a Grafdigger's Cage (other than me) and that's because of my Grenzo deck.

Also, My Captain Sisay deck runs Wheel of Sun and Moon which, it uses as grave hate but, also works as a backup for the Bow of Nylea if it is destroyed/exiled. I get a LOT of value from it by enchanting the Gitrog player.

I used to have a deck very much like this but, I ran into the problem on Grafdigger's Cage as well as targeted removal or counter spell every time I cast Grenzo. I literally could not play Grenzo because of all the hate and that was in a 75% pod. I now play him as a 100% all-in DD deck and it goes a lot better. People are more interested in countering DD and/or killing Kiki or Conscripts than they are shutting off Grenzo. Sure, they still drop the Grafdigger's Cage but, I almost never have to worry about counter spells on Grenzo anymore.

SamsWrath, that's cool. Your meta's your meta. My deck works great in mine, and a lot of other people feel the same way. So I see no reason to restructure it to meet competitive demands.

I'm going to have words with my Azorious Player... XD I had no idea RiP didn't stop grenzo. Still hits hard when you flip noncreatures but getting creatures out from under it is awesome.

Hello, really love your deck and playtested it a lot. I am actually going to build it in paper <3

Have you thought of Priest of Forgotten Gods as a repeatable Plaguecrafter maybe ?

snowfox54119, adding in a few instant speed interaction spells would NOT make your deck qualify as "Competitive." All it would do is help you deal with any problem cards that might come up. A 100% comp Grenzo deck (barring lands) shares only 9 cards with your list. You'd have to completely change the deck to, "Meet competitive demands."

davidlbd I actually was really excited when Priest of the Forgotten Gods was revealed but quickly realized it doesn't really do anything we want. It's a limited, more difficult to abuse Ashnod's Altar . The life loss for each opponent is a negligible benefit. And we actually don't want to draw cards since the bottom of our deck is our hand most of the time. So I'd recommend skipping it.

snowfox54119 Speaking of what, do you often end up with cards in hand you really want to discard ? Beacause I have the feeling that I do and have few ways to do so. That's why I replaced Gonti, Lord of Luxury by Liliana, Heretical Healer  ^Flip as a value engine and way to discard these cards. I am curious to hear your thoughts about it :)

i see they made Junktroller in the new set if you need another ef

davidlbd, that's not a bad replacement. I personally love Gonti just because of the interesting situations he can create, but Liliana is a great source of discard. We also run Body Snatcher which can discard and recur all in one package. If you find you constantly have a full hand, you could also run Skirge Familiar to turn those discards into extra mana.

I_TappedWrong, I actually just recently took Junktroller out cause he was a little too slow for my tastes. But I'd recommend running him if you have it! He's great and can be a source of infinite with Thornbite Staff and Ashnod's Altar

A discard outlet. I want a discard outlet. I get stuck with great creatures in hand, and don't want to pay to hard cast them. Will start looking for options.

for discard i would usually use cards like Liliana of the Veil or Sarkhan, Fireblood or even Daretti, Scrap Savant because you pitch the cards but can fill your hand again minus liliana but everyone loses a card so its okay.