I think that one of Praetor's Grasp advantage is that it can double as a tutor in certain tables, not saying that it is less color intensive. Anyway, Sadistic Sacrament looks like it could have some place in this deck. Let me know your experience with said card!

I think it mainly depends on your meta. If you're playing against a lot of combo decks, then I could definitely see Sadistic Sacrament doing some work. The biggest downside is that you're only effecting one other player. Praetor's Grasp at least allows you to play the piece you stole, which can help out tremendously depending on if it's a ramp piece like Mana Crypt or just a backup Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.

I do agree with those points guys... But I think Sacrament is going to be my choice once testing is complete.

Any updates on this list? With Masters 25 out and the upcoming Dominaria return there are several powerful cards seeing reprint mostly Imperial Recruiter. Does he have a spot in this list? I know the list is tight as it is, but new things get printed and things change! Just seeing whats up!

The list is broken into 4 main parts: Mana Generation, Interaction, Tutors/Draw for finding Doomsday, and Doomsday pieces. Of all the new stuff from Masters 25 and Dominaria, none of it really changes any of these sections dramatically. Dominaria might still hold something interesting in it's yet-to-be-spoiled commons/uncommons, but so far nothing has stood out. Imperial Recruiter doesn't really help us find Doomsday, and it doesn't really work in any of the piles, so it doesn't seem to relevant in the list. I think one of the biggest potential changes to the list would be the inclusion of a 2-power red or black Pestermite. Zealous Conscripts works for now, but it means our smallest functioning Doomsday pile is Priest > Kiki > Sledder > Conscript with one card on top as a backup plan. If we can get a color-shifted Pestermite, we can have a Priest > Kiki > Pestermite pile, with 2 cards on top.

Has there been any speculation on such a thing as a colorshifted Pestermite?

Dominaria full spoilers are out. Mox Amber seems like a shoe-in. Final Parting also seems worthwhile to test if you are playing the Worldgorger package.

hi, can you send me the link for the grenzo discord?

Are people thinking Mox Amber for Overeager Apprentice?

How do we win with a situation like- you have both priests or a piece of each combo in hand? can you even win in this situation then?

Or like, for example- you have kiki and redcap in your hand. How can you even win then? I get that the deck is supposed to mulligan aggresively and try to win ASAP. But this certainly can happen and the only real option is to hardcast them in the doomsday turn to combo out (which is a big mana requirement, pretty hard to achieve) or try to find scroll rack. Is this reliable enough?

You can discard your own cards with Thoughtseize or LED prior to Doomsday resolving, so you can put them in the pile.

Did you change the piles to not include details on how to stack? please return this information!

Clay_Puppington, is development on this deck dead?

Not Clay_Puppington but I have played the deck a lot. To answer your question, I don't think the deck is dead, just nothing of note has come out recently that's worth testing. The only recent card that lends itself to the current strategy is Mox Amber, but it's not a very major change. Most new creatures aren't very promising on paper. A color-shifted Pestermite/Deceiver Exarch/Felidar Guardian is probably the best we can hope for at the moment. That would reduce our best line to a 3 card pile, giving us a bigger safety net after casting Doomsday. Additionally, a new creature could be spoiled that either makes an existing line more efficient, introduces a new line altogether, or provides an alternative to Doomsday (ie something that lets us organize cards at the bottom of our library).

That's fair. I'm trying to maintain a list and am trying out cutting the single basic mountain for Luxury Suite to see how that plays out. Thoughts?

I'd rather cut Sulfurous Springs for four reasons. One, the new dual lands are strictly better when it comes to producing mana. Two, we don't play anything that requires colorless mana (Eldarzi stuff), so having that first mode isn't relevant in our deck. Three, our lifetotal matters for cards like Ad Nauseam, Necropotence, and Plunge into Darkness, so losing a life to make colored mana is very relevant since it can cost us card advantage. Four, very occasionally having a Mountain is crucial, like getting a red source off of Path of Exile, or if there is a Back to Basics in play. Sulfurous Springs doesn't have any corner cases like that in our deck, so it feels better to cut.

If you also wanted to keep Sulfurous Springs, I'd cut a Swamp instead. I more often have a problem with red mana than black, so I'd rather keep all the read in the deck that I can. The biggest downside to that is that we lose a Swamp we can sacrifice to Lake of the Dead.

However, Mountain might be the correct cut for your meta. Playtest it and see if you notice the impact in a positive or negative way. Hopefully my reasoning was clear enough, but sometimes play results speak for themselves. In any case, good luck and have fun in your dungeon. :)

I hadn't considered Back to Basics but I had thought about Path to Exile, and truthfully, it was the only thing that made me question the decision to cut a Mountain... My rationale is simply that as many multi coloured lands in the deck are ideal.... Most of the time at least.

I'll take your suggestions to heart though and will playtest to see what works best.

On a different note, what does the community think of Stunning Reversal? I know it won't save me if I whiff on a Doomsday pile by getting disrupted, but could it be a second chance against other combo decks, Like Blood Pod?

BTW, my build of the deck is located here in case anyone wants to carry discussion over to it. 0 to Doomsday in 3.5 turns

I have a few questions,

1) Why not use Luxury Suite over City of Brass? Luxury Suite has no life loss when tapped, comes into play untapped (amusing MP game--who plays Grenzo/Doomsday 1v1?) and gives either B or R.

2) What is the major advantage to using Jeweled Amulet instead of another 0 CMC artifact like Mox Amber? At best, Jeweled Amulet can be used every other turn and only offers replacement/filter/storage of a single mana. Mox Amber can be used as soon as Grenzo, Dungeon Warden is in play.

3) If using Plunge into Darkness as a quasi tutor, why not substitute it for Cruel Tutor? Cruel Tutor is sorcery speed so that is a small disadvantage and it has the drawback of placing the card on the top of the library but, that can be played around with Chromatic Sphere, Chromatic Star, Sensei's Divining Top, Scroll Rack and Necropotence.

4) What are you thoughts on Shadowblood Egg and Grim Monolith?

Roally, don't you think that City of Brass would be the best cut if looking to swap a pain land for Luxury Suite? City of Brass will ping you for 1 damage even if tapping it as a swamp with Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in play. Sulfurous Springs and Mana Confluence won't have that problem.

I cut a Swamp to make room. Haven't regretted it

ANy comments on my build? 0 to Doomsday in 3.5 turns

I hadn't logged into TappedOut for a while, so I apologize for the late reply.

To begin, the majority of this list has been "solved" theoretically. Our deck's goal is pretty clear and there is little theory-crafting we can do to improve it from the current pool of cards. There are plenty of cards that barely missed the cut or were recently released but not strictly better than what we have. For those cards, the only way we can really determine their worth is to play-test them and see what actually performs better. Some of this is meta reliant, which means both the cards in the list and the card you want to replace it with could both be "correct" depending on what you're up against.

Luxury Suite instead of City of Brass might be correct. Sulfurous Springs does have a way to avoid pain, which can be relevant when compared to City of Brass, like with SamsWrath's Urborg example. The main issue I've had with this deck is having a reliable red source to get Grenzo out, so cutting a Swamp for another red source seems like a no-brainer. However, I have had plenty of games where Lake of the Dead has catapulted me to victory and I needed all the Swamps I could get my hands on. So ultimately, I'm not sure if there is an obvious cut for Luxury Suite or if it's something that'll need to be discovered through play-testing.

Mox Amber is slightly iffy since it can only be used when Grenzo is out. In theory, that should be as early as T1 but almost always by T2. However, reality can be messy and sometimes we can't get online that quickly. Jeweled Amulet can be used in those grindier games where you might have to go off manually without Grenzo. That said, I've never been too big a fan of Jeweled Amulet, so I'm in favor of it being cut for Mox Amber.

I think the reason we see Plunge over Cruel is almost entirely because it's an Instant and 1 CMC less. Both of those are pretty relevant to how the deck plays. But like I said earlier, play-testing is key here. If your meta is slower, Cruel Tutor has the upside of not accidentally exiling combo pieces.

Shadowblood Egg and Grim Monolith are both alright, but not quite good enough to easily include over something else. I'm not sure what you'd want to cut for them, or what they even provide for the deck that our current list lacks. Sure, egg helps filter and draws, and Monolith is a ritual, but both are a bit awkward. I have awkward plays with Signet where one of the colors is not useful and no better than a colorless. Having essentially a second one-use signet seems like it'd be more trouble than it's worth. As for Grim Monolith, colorless mana in our deck can be surprisingly hard to use considering how color intensive most of our spells are. Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, and Sol Ring get a pass because they're so cheap.

Regarding Stunning Reversal, it seems dead in like 99% of games. Like Ender said, it doesn't save us on whiffed Doomsdays, and actually prevents us from casting Doomsday after it resolves. I'm not a big fan.

Hopefully this was helpful. I'm not trying to shut anyone down or discourage ideas, innovation is why I stay subscribed to these comments. However, I think it's important to be realistic about our evaluations. Ultimately, playtesting data is what will confirm or deny all our theorycrafting, so keep testing and report back with your results! :)

Roally, I am considering trying out Shadowblood Egg as a replacement for Springleaf Drum. My reasoning for this is as follows:

1. Shadowblood Egg offers the perfect replacement to play Grenzo, Dungeon Warden (BR).
2. I usually only get 1-2 uses of Springleaf Drum per game and when its a one-use card all it generally does is offer replacement--colorless to black or red.
3. Just like Chromatic Star and Chromatic Sphere, Shadowblood Egg offers an additional path when building a Doomsday pile--put Dark Ritual or Lion's Eye Diamond on top of the pile and use it to draw a card.
4. Shadowblood Egg offers the chance to draw a card after tutoring with Imperial Seal or Vampiric Tutor

The best overall scenario I can think of for Shadowblood Egg would be something like this:

• 5 mana available but, 7 needed (BBB + 2 colorless available but, BBBB + R + 2 needed)
• Use BBB to cast Doomsday
• Place Dark Ritual or Lion's Eye Diamond as the top card
• Use Shadowblood Egg (which is already in play) to draw a card and filter the 2 colorless mana to BR
• Cast Dark Ritual or crack Lion's Eye Diamond for 3 mana
• Cast Grenzo, Dungeon Warden
• 2-3 mana left to combo out

Also, I have been using Mox Amber over Jeweled Amulet and I have to say I am pleased with the results. I get to use my Mox Amber every game I cast it whereas, with Jeweled Amulet I only actually use it about 50% of the time when I draw it because it depends on me having extra mana to charge it. With regard to Grim Monolith, I have been running it as well and I typically use it to combo out or as ramp I can use with other cards that allow me to filter mana like the rituals and the priests/apprentice. The extra ramp from it has been nothing short of excellent especially when pulling it after casting Ad Nauseam.