This is really creative. +1

How do you handle people countering or stopping your combos? You simply lose?

Thanks for the compliment, PlatnumxStatuS. For the most part, you either have to counter Crystal Ball or Doomsday, in which case we then dig for a way to flash it back, or bring it back into play. The deck has redundancies, but it is far more fragile then the Esper Doomsday deck I played before this, in that Rakdos Doomsday can't really defend itself as well as other ones could.

However, it trades stability in getting the combo off, with speed and complexity in actually stopping it if it resolved. We're racing to 7 mana as quickly as we can, while also digging for Doomsday - those two factors will be what decides what's going on, and how exactly if we'll be getting our combos out on today. It's definitely not meant for a Blue dominated table, nor control decks - though it's still fun and can durdle all day if it needs to. It's just much more likely if you generate your mana faster than your opponents.

After all, Stifle, Trickbind, and the like are the only things that stop Grenzo dead. And if you accidentally let Scroll Rack or Doomsday resolve, it's only a matter of time for me to try going off again.

hey man, nice deck, i play grenzo myself too (i play frenchy 1v1)[http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/grenzo-dungeon-warden-1v1-edh/]The only thing i could perhaps add to your deck, is to use the priests to combo. With those two in the deck, you can turn 5 win with doomsday, or turn 3 with a dark ritual. The pile from bottom to top: prest, kiki jiki, someone that gives grenzo +1, zealous conscripts, brain maggot for example. Turn 5 you cast doomsday, from 2 mana you grenzo, get 3 mana, grenzo again, youre down to 1, kiki jiki copies the priest, youre up to 4, grenzo 2x, zealous c. copies kiki jiki, inf combo, swing for the win . if you know your enemies have something evil planned, you can wait a turn, and play the maggot, or play an unmask or something.I'd also consider adding worldgorger dragon, its a dangerous combo: you need to reanimate him with an enchantment, to get to infinite mana, thus win the game in one of several ways :)

No worries, this was meant as a multiplayer focused deck. I have used the Priests before to combo, I just don't usually list them as options, because I do like hiding things from opponents (I've got some friends who also watch my lists, and focus primarily on the combos I put in my descriptions, until they find out that I'm deliberately withholding all information from them ;)).

Brain Maggot would be an interesting inclusion, though discarding/exiling a single card from a single person's hand isn't worth it in multiplayer. Worldgorger and Animate Dead has been suggested to me a few times, however, this has been moved to a retired status now - mostly because I got bored of playing Doomsday. While digging/searching for my combo pieces, it was very fun to do so (usually jokes with friends that that was the nightmare fuel of this deck), but after a while, I got bored of doing so. Otherwise, I would have found a way to work it in.

Haha i can quite relate to that ;)Grenzo is just much weaker in multi, + worldgorger dragon is begging to get killed as he enters the battlefield, so there goes all your permanents.....But then in multi i would really recommend more creatures, no need to go full tribal, but the new drana and liliana are quite nice in the deck. + I personally try to keep the number of creatures above 30, if you dont, youre paying 6+ mana for 1 creature :/ and that makes me a sad sad pandabut ofc play the deck the way you enjoy it

Clearing Comments.

This deck is incredibly fun. I've played PSI in legacy and doomsday for a while, and while I was never an expert, my first game out with the deck went well, as I got a turn 5 win, and it was a blast! I also included Defense Grid a few weeks back when building the deck. Good stuff man! I'm following your updates!

Hey man, i find myself playing more and more grenzo at edh nowadays, thought i'd share some insights (have been playing him for 2 years on and off). I see you run a combo heavy version, i try to play as many etb-utility creatures as possible, i feel it makes it more fun, more random - Grenzo style, but its up to you on how you want to play this general, so ill try to cater my comments to your type of gameplay. I would first off switch your goblin sledder for Mad Auntie. Works perfectly in the combo, and can regen grenzo or kiki. If you really run so few creatures, i dont exactly see why Redcap is so good, i might be missing a combo you run...If you plan on some grenzo style tricks, i would add Ceaseless Searblades for sure, with Lavaclaw Reaches as a must have land. The 2 cards are fun together, ill let you figure that out . I feel like siege gang commander is a must have too. Once you have infinite mana with worldgorger dragon, you use the mana to grenzo him out, and sac grenzo infinite amount of times (replayig him with infinite mana).Other cards (if you really only want the essential dudes) i would consider in your deck are:

Hearthstone -> value

crucible of worlds -> value

Read the bones -> draw and scry? value2

Tel-Jilad Stylus -> another hidden op card, you can etb creatures twice a turn, and also use the ultimate grenzo mechanic. Lets say he is targeted by a killspell. You use grenzo's ability, in response, you use the artifact. First the artifact resolves, grenzo gets put on the bottom of the library, then grenzo's ability resolves, and he "brings himself back" since his power was 2 or more when you used the ability, and he's a 2/2 at the bottom of the library. Why do this? Because the new grenzo that comes out, counts as a different guy, so the spell fizzles .

Vessel of Endless Rest -> mana and card from gy onto bottom of library

Devil's play -> kills 1 person with infinite mana from dragon.

Lastly, i would add a card like mesmeric fiend, so when you doomsday, and have enough mana, you put that on the bottom of library, so its the first card to come up. You can just use it to check a players hand, who looks to disrupt the combo the most.

Thats my 2 cents, but i mostly play the deck in duel-commander, althought it absolutely stands its ground in multi. Here is my bit outdated decklist, ill up it in a week or so: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/grenzo-dungeon-warden-1v1-edh/

(the deck isnt budget, but i lack certain cards such as lili badlands and bob).

gromgrom Thanks for the input. Glad to hear you're having a blast playing it. It's definitely a different deck, and is designed for a quick win. I've been taking a bit of a break from Magic, but I'm definitely thinking of updating the list to include Lightning Axe over Dismember, to get our curve down further.

HarshImpala: This deck is actually the competitive EDH Grenzo primer for multiplayer. TL;DR: This deck needs practice to play, but when it goes off, it goes off explosively and early - taking wins as early as turn 3. This deck isn't budget by any stretch - it's designed to win first and foremost, and not designed to fall to Stax pieces. This is not designed to feel good, it's designed to win. My suggestion is to try playing it how I have listed, and then you might see it's not as fragile as it might first appear.

This deck used to use Mad Auntie, but there's no reason for it - it adds two extra mana when revealed off Ad Naus, and is usually used in Doomsday piles as our way to cheat Grenzo up one P/T which isn't worth it. Lavaclaw Reaches and Ceaseless Searblades do nothing to make us win, in fact, Lavaclaw is an ETB tapped land that isn't fetchable - so it's slowing us down. Hearthstone isn't needed because it only synergies with one piece - and forces us to cut a removal piece. Nor is Crucible (does nothing for the deck), nor Tel-Jilad (who cares? You're already a glass cannon playing this deck), or Vessel (3 mana rocks are bad). All those cards are so slow and dilute the combos this deck runs. Devil's Play is also bad, because you can simply kill people with Redcap.

I used to use Read the Bones, but Skeletal Scrying works out better for the deck. It's actually not as bad as it seems, because you can spare a few cards off the bottom with Grenzo's abilities/fetches/other cards used for digging. Mesmeric Fiend and used to be run in the list, but Thoughtseize, Duress, and IoK are what replaced them because they're a more effective use of mana.

Also, to answer your comment on Redcap, it kills people with Worldgorger because he's entering and leaving the battlefield several times, which deals 2 damage every time. It's how I kill people by going off with Worldgorger. It's basically if someone in response blows up your lands, you still have a way to kill them and just not care. It's stupid, but it works. So it's not some dumb after all.

I run Piranha Marsh/Zulaport Cutthroat over Redcap, Cutthroat works the same but better right? Or do the triggers not happen the way I expect?

Piranha Marsh does work but is slow until you can combo out with it which is why I don't run it. Cutthroat on the other hand, unfortunately doesn't work. The only thing going to the graveyard on loop is Worldgorger but he's already off in exile land when Worldgorger leaves off to the yard. Remember, Worldgorger exiles all other permanents on etb, then on leaves, everything returns.

Hey man, thanks for the response. I wasnt trying to diss your deck in any way, just trying to help . Then again, multi and 1v1 are quite different it seems. I cant run all those accelerators, and broken :P tutors you do, so i get more value from grenzo's ability. Skeletal Scrying is really good, i see how its better than read the bones in your deck.

Them blowing up all our lands doesnt seem too probable in my eyes, so i still would include siege gang commander in your list, it can even help kill annoying stuff, like containment priest, which does straight up make us lose the game. Or just provide some much needed blockers.

Hey, just wanted to let you know that in the second protected doomsday pile you list you can actually initiate the Worldgorger Dragon loop without Animate Dead by simply copying it with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker. The original dragon and the clone will have an interaction similar to what happens when you stack o-rings. All you've got to do is keep copying the original with kiki once it obliterates the clone.

where is Insidious Dreams? there is already one combo in here (Faithless Looting, Worldgorger Dragon, Animate Dead ftw)

While I know it is slow, any chance on testing Magus of the Will?

Splashy, this is true... but I was going for ease of understanding what the deck does, rather than alternative plays. Appreciated that you caught that though ;)

I apologize HarshImpala, this is for /r/cEDH - where Multiplayer is the norm. So I have access to the broken tutors and fast mana. Siege-Gang also adds too much to the curve that we're trying to keep small because of Ad Nauseum. The only advantage Siege-Gang has is that he can throw himself before being exiled - but even then, once in yard, and on Worldgorger Loop, it's not going to let us win, and forces the game into a draw. Which might as well be a loss in our book. ;)

Dunadain, Insidious was cut so we could use Ad Nausem which draws though our deck a lot better. Dreams is good, but slow. Not a fan of it for it's slowness, but to each their own. And yes, I know you can stack nut draws. It's just a lot harder to justify over Ad Nausem when you can get all your rituals and tutors turn 3/4 and go off from there.

gromgrom - if you know it's slow, then sorry man, can't test it. Point of Grenzo DD is to go fast. He also doesn't do enough as a creature to justify his inclusion. He doesn't fit in the DD pile, he's too slow as a backup YawgWill or Past in Flames, he's too big to reliably get off Grenzo... honestly, I feel this deck doesn't want him.

So I noticed Plunge into Darkness is in your list but not Tainted Pact or Demonic Consultation? Why?

I'm afraid I don't understand your logic for insidious dreams, ad nauseum usually wins the game the turn you cast, Insidious Dreams Always wins the turn after (but instant speed means eot works) Solution: run them both.

Hiya hellnoire

I have questions! Many of them! Endless! Or... like 3.

Question 1:

Murderous Redcap - What is our little cubone looking friends main purpose in this deck? Is he part of a combo I'm overlooking? Is he used strict for removal effects?

Entomb - Is this card slotted simply for Worldgorger Combo use? How often do you find yourself casting it, rather than just discarding it or wheeling the card away?

Praetor's Grasp - What are you looking to grip in a multiplayer game?

I've come back. I just remember that Redcap goes to infinite damage with Worldgorger, please ignore that section!

Meut - because I only had the spot for one of them. Not all of them. Plus, exiling top six before doing our search hurts us in case both pieces are there. Tainted Pact is also not worth it since we run so many Swamps to take advantage of Swamp doublers.

Dunadain Honestly, in my testing, I haven't liked Insidious Dreams. I find it too slow as a tutor, and if we're not properly set up, Johnny Casual's mill deck will destroy all we worked for. If you wish to run it, go right ahead. Personally, and this is my two cents, I find it too slow.

Clay_Puppington Entomb is just for Worldgorger at this point. And in the testing branch (going up later tonight), it's been cut as has Worldgorger. As for Praetor's Grasp, you're either looking for a counterspell, (like Pact of Negation or very low on blue count since we can now cast things outside of our general's colour restriction) mana rocks, or tutors. It technically should be Grim Tutor but when I actively played this deck, it wasn't needed as I was playing against a group of other cEDH players who ran enough of the above that it worth it. It was 100% a meta call, and is better as Grim Tutor.

hellnoire any reason for the exclusion of Imperial Seal, especially now as the Judge promo has brought the card down to almost reasonable prices?

Thanks for getting back to me btw. I was taking a crack at building a copy of your list myself, and having tested it a bunch of times, I kept getting locked up at the Entomb-Worldgorger combo, as I think I may only have used it once.

I'm excited to see the testing branch, and if your changes to the replacement of Worldgorger match my own.

Thanks so much for your work on this deck, it truly is fantastic.

If you can afford an Imperial Seal Clay_Puppington, then yes, it's even better there. This original list I had all in paper, so Seal at the time hadn't been reprinted. I couldn't afford one, and my group took a hard stance against proxies.

I've posted the testing branch here so there's no real reason to move discussion there. However, it will make more sense to do so since we're still discussing Grenzo stuff.

Is Bazaar of Baghdad something that this deck would be interested in? Or is it not worth the land slot?

Gotta give some love to other people who play competitive Rakdos builds that require much pondering! +1 from me.

I have a Tymaret Stax deck that Im slowly perfecting as well, with a very similar story to yours. We just happen to be technical opposites, combo and stax.