@numberoverzero - thanks for feedback, my responses below.
Noxious Revival is only there to save from Surgical Extraction or to put a Fury of the Horde back on top to go for the kill shot. Thoughtseize is never a problem for this deck, in fact I have had people scoop after using Thoughtseize because they saw that my hand was combo ready.
Manamorphose is way better than Gitaxian Probe , yes its a red source to pitch to Fury of the Horde , it can help me free cast Izzet Charm , Goryo's Vengeance , Signal the Clans , all of which are beneficial to me. Combo decks rely less on what your opponent is doing, and rely more on how fast you can combo off. the Pact of Negation is there to make sure if they try to stop you on winning turn, you can keep it going
Ray of Revelation and Ancient Grudge are both there to be able to flash back after a pitch. Izzet Charm , Wild Guess require us to pitch cards, and these two can be easily pitched without consequence. also, with the flashback, you get double the mileage out of both compared to a singleton Wear / Tear
Borborygmos Enraged can end the game himself on the same turn. with fetches and Thoughtseize prevelant in the meta, more often than not you are not racing your opponent to 20, but more so 14-16. The cyclops excels at that. Obzedat, Ghost Council was in consideration, but was cut due to prolonging the game. This deck is not built to prolong the game past the reanimation turn. once your creature hits play, you are setup to win that turn, no need to grind it out, because they may be able to come back from it. even Nicol Bolas was too slow, as he only did 7 damage and discarded their hand.
again, combo decks are not made to grind out games and make them, especially in a format like modern where you are racing to T4 win or you are not playing competitively.
I have played this list many times, and to date have only a handful of losses. the one dead card that used to be in there was Time of Need which has since been replaced by Signal the Clans .
Thanks though for your input, very appreciative because it forces me to look back at my deck and defend my card choices :)
August 7, 2014 3:50 p.m.
numberoverzero says... #3
Well thought-out responses to all points, thanks! I agree with nearly everything you've written, except the first point in #1 and most of #2. Let me try to break down my thoughts on Manamorphose vs Gitaxian Probe first.
Manamorphose vs Gitaxian Probe
- Manamorphose is a red source for Fury of the Horde which is relevant before drawing 7. After drawing 7, and especially after drawing 14, I don't think this is a compelling point. I'm willing to admit that there are games where you won't be able to draw 14 and need to find 2 red in 7 cards, but I don't think those matches are as common as matches where you'll face a Mana Leak , Spell Pierce , or especially Spell Snare . I'm willing to yield to lack of exerience here, but from the UWr control side I'm at 3 Snares and trying to go to 4. I used to run 2 pierce, and I currently run 3 remand, 3 leak.
- I don't see how Manamorphose helps you "free cast" any of the 2cmc spells you've listed - all your lands tap for mana of any color, and there's in fact a risk that if you draw into one of those spells off of Manamorphose, you'll have selected the wrong colors before the card draw.
- "Pact of Negation takes care of disruption" is a reasonable defense once Griselband is on the field given the insane pile of cards you're looking through. When you're trying to resolve the first Goryo's Vengeance however, it probably won't be in your first hand. Gitaxian Probe also doesn't take care of disruption, but if you don't have a pact in hand it lets you know if your Vengeance is about to walk into a Spell Snare. If so, you know to either wait a turn, or go off on their end step and then Noxious Revival the Vengeance to the top so you redraw it. If life for some odd reason was a concern, it will cost you one less by making blue with a land, or can be cast for the same lifeloss as a Manamorphose without using a land.
Noxious Revival vs Pact of Negation
This card is almost identical to pact for combo decks - there are two differences and, since the edge cases have large payoffs for combo decks, they're worth comparing.
Noxious Revival is better in any one of the following situations:
- While going off you are in someway irreprably disrupted and cannot finish the kill until the next turn (such as needing an extra set of mana from tapped lands). Pact would be a loss, Revival gives you a draw.
- You are on the draw, and opponent t1 Thoughtseize a Vengeance out of your hand. I don't see why anyone would scoop to your hand, when they can take the kill spell out easily. Pact would kill you next turn (your t1) but you can simply Noxious the discarded card at their EOT and it doesn't matter.
- You are about to fizzle mid combo, and need a critical card that has already been played that turn. Fury of the Horde is a great example - once you start the chain, Noxious Revival are Fury of the Horde 5-8. Consistency is paramount, and there are enough problems dealing with opponents' hands already to worry about fizzling to your own draws. Noxious Revival reduces this chance to basically 0 since you can set up your next draw to contain the critical card to loop again.
Pact is better than Noxious Revival only when all of the following are true:
- There is one spell that will disrupt your play (or 1 per pact in hand)
- You lack the card draw to Revival the countered spell to the top of your library and re-draw
- You lack the mana or red sources to recast the spell once Revival'd
- You absolutely will not fizzle this turn or in any other way be disrupted once this disruption is removed, and you don't care about the next turn's upkeep.
If #1 isn't true, a second disruption spell could force a loss next upkeep. If #2 isn't true, you don't have to pay the extra potential cost of scooping to bad draws. If #3 isn't true, you can revival at their EOT and go again next turn (or revival immediately and Manamorphose/Probe). If #4 isn't true, you may fizzle and pay the extra potential cost of losing to bad draws.
Summary
A longer post on technical play in aggressive combo decks is something I've wanted to write up for a long time, and you've convinced me to give it a shot. If you watch any of the SCG Open Series, the Portland Legacy segment has some brilliant games of combo navigating piles of cheap hate. Lacking Cabal Therapy in Modern, I believe Noxious Revival is the next best option for combo decks to exhaust opponents' resources - doubly so in decks that rely on card draw to win, as it provides mid-combo protection.
I like the list and have no doubt you've been tuning this tightly since its inception - however, consider trying 4 Noxious Revival in the main and move the 2 pact to the SB. I don't think you'll often 9ever, tbh) run into situations that Pact would have been better, and plenty of cases where shrugging off a t1/t2 Thoughtseize or Spell Snare is the difference between a win and a fizzle.
August 7, 2014 5:23 p.m.
numberoverzero says... #4
You convinced me to take a stab at adjusting the list :)
I ended up keeping Manamorphose since I added 3 Desperate Ritual - this version wants to start on the draw, so I needed more mana acceleration, which lead to needing mana fixing - Manamorphose is back. With more card draw (4 Gitaxian Probe ) the Noxious Revival can easily be used to re-loop a Fury without an extra Griselbrand activation. That's probably important, but I haven't played it at all. I imagine Desperate Ritual allows us to Looting and Wild Guess mid-combo to find more pieces, since it can accelerate mana.
I cut Through the Breach because it seems like a lot of mana, and I want to make more consistent t2/t3 wins - I think there are enough looting and drawing effects to allow this.
August 7, 2014 6:08 p.m.
I haven't been following the changes to your list, I've been busy myself working toward GP.
I don't like City of Brass
anymore for Cannon lists. I don't think the situation where responding to the trigger could save you the game.
I REALLY do not like Signal the Clans
, at all. I've played it in budget decks, and its just way to random. At that point I'd rather play like Kiki, Grisel, and Emmy with Jhiora in the same deck, and make more of a sneak attack deck with an alt wins.
August 7, 2014 9:20 p.m.
Lol, this is super fun when the combo works out!
I just playtested it; it took me a couple of hands of seven to give up and just draw the perfect hand and play it out. Really fun and reliable once you see it coming together, +1.
August 8, 2014 8:30 p.m.
@dorotheus. i have 3 win cons in the deck. Signal the Clans make sure i get 1 of them randomly, and can be cast off Manamorphose at the end of their turn. its worked beautifully for me so far
August 8, 2014 9 p.m.
depends on the pilot, but it has served me well over its existence. normally turn 3 wins
October 9, 2014 6:27 p.m.
Been a whole since i looked at all the other Cannon lists, I just recently made the decision to add Narset, and I see that you have as well. I have not officially playtested with her yet, just trying to crunch some numbers, seeing if a forth is needed and so on. How is she working out for you?
Through the Breach seems more neccessary now than it did before in my opinion.
November 25, 2014 2:32 a.m.
narset has been awesome. Through the Breach is definitely better now, for flipping with narset, then dropping Griselbrand, newest variant of my deck has a 10-2 record so far. both losses coming to bad draws against affinity
November 25, 2014 12:27 p.m.
lanimilbuS says... #13
Maybe add another Through the Breach in sideboard for if your opponent brings in graveyard hate?
November 25, 2014 1:08 p.m.
It's a really small thing, I think the deck isn't going to get much better without changing archetypes altogether (aka Gifts Ungiven deck), but I KNOW that is not what you want to do.
The small change is just a Tormenting Voice for Izzet Charm just to bump that up to 4. I know the trade offs and I was running through them, if it was even worth mentioning, you're essentially taking out Lightning Axe for T.Voice, but the counter on Charm is really difficult to ignore. I like the place where your deck is, I respect it, and I hope you go to a modern event soon :D
November 25, 2014 9:11 p.m.
Thanks dorotheus. The deck has served me very well in fnm style events. Im hoping for a large scale modern event on the west coast soon, would love to take grisel cannon and get on camera. Lol I even bought an oversized foil version for that very moment. Style points matter
November 26, 2014 1 a.m.
greenkingwashere says... #17
I'd say rather than Pact of Negation put in Not of This World. It counters spells that target grisy.
November 27, 2014 9:36 p.m.
Pact protects the combo if I have it in hand in case they stop goryo, or I can protect Grisel from being removed. Not of This World only protects grisel and has 2 more cmc otherwise
November 27, 2014 10:33 p.m.
PlattBonnay says... #19
what is the Ajani Vengeant in the sideboard for?
December 21, 2014 1:10 p.m.
I'm trying him out, might replace with Elspeth, just serving as another wincon that can be triggered off narset
December 21, 2014 1:52 p.m.
PlattBonnay says... #21
Yeah, and I got that part, but what decks do you bring him in against? I don't see what he really adds to the deck other than being a solid card.
(also, any chance you could write out a sideboard guide for some of the popular matchups?)
December 21, 2014 8:41 p.m.
can be cast off narset, still testing him. I was thinking of using him against control. might change it up
December 22, 2014 2:49 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #23
Why Narset? All she does is provide clutter for you game plan. Instead something to give Grisel double strike or whatever would be more effective.
March 13, 2015 6:57 p.m.
narset can be pitched to Fury of the Horde, and if she lands, she can chain into Griselbrand, also she is pretty hard to get rid of on the board with the hexproof
March 16, 2015 9:57 p.m.
misterjanky says... #25
She certainly can't chain into Griselbrand, or any other creature. Assault Strobe would be much better. Maybe leave Narset, Enlightened Master as a fun-of (one of).
tookit says... #1
Not fast enough, jk +1
August 7, 2014 2:13 p.m.