Although a lot of decks on TappedOut have 23 lands, because they are worried about too much land late game, you'll find that a lot of the pro decks run 25. That way they don't get stalled in the early game.
They get value out of late game lands by using them for something other than mana eg. Sea Gate Wreckage
I think this deck needs at least 24 lands.
July 18, 2016 12:48 a.m.
Argeaux,
As always, thanks TONS for your thoughts!
- Oops on [Moonlit Hunt]; thanks much for pointing that out!
- Yeah, Sylvan Advocate is super-strong. I think the Pacifist edges him out in this deck, due to the synergy with Silverfur Partisan, but it's really close.
- Confront the Unknown is really good too, and you're right about both the draw and the pump (though the pump is kind of tricky ... with Zada and two creatures out for example, one gets +1/+1, one gets +2/+2, and then Zada gets +3/+3. The trade-off is the explosive draw from Expedite (which can set of some really fun chains) vs. the more deliberate draw from Confront the Unknown. Hmmm ...
- Similarly, I've kind of gone back and forth on the 1-drop vs 2-drop Instants. The idea with the 1-drops is to chain them together Storm-fashion, for some explosive swings, especially when Silverfur Partisan is out. But the 2-drops are definitely better top-decks, and it's kind of wild how often that one extra point of damage makes all the difference. Again, hmmm ...
- I'm with you and SilentSpook on 24 lands. 23 has proven to be too few too often, and I think I'd rather be mana-flooded than mana-screwed anyways!
Thanks again!
July 20, 2016 9:52 a.m.
gassydonutlychee,
Thanks but neither Clear Shot nor Rabid Bite work in this deck, because they have multiple targets. Zada, Hedron Grinder and Mirrorwing Dragon will not trigger unless you cast a "spell that targets only ~ ...".
Also, I prefer Moonlight Hunt to Rabid Bite in a mostly-Werewolf deck.
I talk about Nissa vs. Hanweir Garrison up in Post #23.
Finally, your suggestions to mainboard additional Werewolves would make great sense if I wanted this to be a pure Werewolf deck. You may not have noticed, but this is a Zada/Mirrorwing/Werewolf deck :-)
Thanks though.
July 20, 2016 10:03 a.m.
Don't all Instants that target Zada get cast at the same time?
if you have three Creatures plus Zada in the field and target her with Confront the Unknown, I would think you end up with four Clues and everybody gets +4/+4.
July 20, 2016 10:04 a.m. Edited.
Argeaux,
No, the copies go on the stack individually. The Gatherer ruling is "You control all the copies. You choose the order the copies are put onto the stack. The original spell will be on the stack beneath those copies and will resolve last."
July 20, 2016 10:09 a.m.
Oh well.
In that case Expedite is probably better.
All dem Clues, tho.
If you had Tireless Tracker out it would be insane!
July 20, 2016 10:16 a.m.
Argeaux,
I'm actually going to try Confront the Unknown for a while. I'm thinking the floor is about the same as Expedite, but the ceiling is much higher (e.g., if I already have some Clues on board, or if I have a bunch of creatures out).
I'm not sure about Tireless Tracker though. Fundamentally, this deck would rather go wide than tall. But I like the extra Clue every Land drop would give to the starting value of Confront the Unknown. And it would certainly help draw removal away from Zada and Mirrorwing. Again, you're making me go "Hmmm ..." :-)
Thanks!
July 20, 2016 10:37 a.m.
No worries.
I'll probably up vote this once I see its final form.
Looking good so far.
July 20, 2016 10:43 a.m.
I wasn't really suggesting Tireless Tracker.
You can't put someone in your deck that's going to track all the Werewolves down!!
Although, maybe it's not such an insane idea if you have Confront the Unknown ...
Now you're making ME go hmmm.
Have we just discovered a new insane combo?
July 20, 2016 10:48 a.m.
One heads up I'll give you with a deck that is heavy on Clues is to be careful not to sac so many that you Mill yourself.
That has happened to me on a couple of occasions.
July 20, 2016 10:54 a.m.
Argeaux,
Maybe. Add some Second Harvest? And maybe Ghirapur AEther Grid for reach?
Hmmm ... :-D
Plus, we get to call it Gruul Cluues!
July 20, 2016 10:56 a.m.
You know, in all seriousness, I think you should completely build this deck.
I think it could turn out to be quite amazing, and completely unexpected.
With enough Clues you can basically draw into anything you need to win.
July 20, 2016 3:10 p.m.
Well look at that. FINALLY an amazing use for Arlinn. I cracked her at prerelease.
Token Generators:
- Captain's Claws
- Cult of the Waxing Moon
- Hangarback Walker
- Hanweir Garrison
- Shrill Howler's flip side (also a Werewolf)
- Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
- Omnath, Locus of Rage (you'd want Evolving Wilds as well)
- Ulvenwald Mysteries
- Zendikar's Roil
Then that token generator gives another path to victory with Emrakul's Evangel.
Also - Briarbridge Patrol - makes Clues.
Tamiyo's Journal would also be sick.
July 20, 2016 3:56 p.m.
I feel like we might want more spells for the combo.Maybe cut down on some creatures to include more instants?Something like 2x Duskwatch Recruiter Flip out / 2x Expedite in. What do you think?
Also, did you test out the version with the 2cmc buffs instead of the 1 mana ones?I think considering our card draw wanting to cast more spells in a turn might be better.Does the +1 power buff these spells have really feel necessary?
July 22, 2016 7 p.m.
Why is there no Waxing moon in here. If you're running werewolves that transform, waxing moon is essential. I understand this was made before Eldtrich Moon, but it need to be updated with waxing moon. With a waxing moon and kessig prowler, I have been able to swing for 4 on turn 2 with the kessig prowler because of waxing moon.
July 23, 2016 1:42 a.m.
Would need more Werewolfs for that to make sense.With only 8 potential targets it's not really worth putting in (especially since it doesn't get copied with the combo) over the other instants. You could put in 1 or 2 copies but I'd rather run another mass buff.
Also, no Kessig Prowler here and this deck is not even aggro in the first place.
July 23, 2016 7:17 a.m.
Hey,So I'm planning on buying this deck, just I'm kinda on a budget and live in Aussie so everything is a lot more expensive sigh would it ruin anything by dropping the two Nissas for 2 howlpacks?? It's the same mana so it doesn't ruin the curve, the only difference would be you don't get counters each -2 you get +1+1 whilst it's on the field. But you do get trample which is a really nice addition. I'm quite unsure tho, what do you think?? I suppose I could run 4 howlpacks as they are like 1$ each aud and see how it runs and buy Nissas if it's not running well. God dammit usd to aud conversion rates and postage argh hahhaa
July 23, 2016 9:09 a.m.
_FxZIONZ_ I'm in Australia.
Try buying on eBay, rather than ordering from the States.
You can compare prices easily, and sometimes get some really good deals.
Also, check The Games Cube website. They often have cards for reasonable prices.
I think you'll find the Nissa's are essential.
July 23, 2016 9:44 a.m.
When casting Confront the unknown, how many clues do you get? Let's say I have Zada, Silverfur and 3 wolves. I Investigate (1 clue), target Zada, the spell gets copied so I Investigate for each of the wolves (5 clues total) or only the +1/+1 boost gets copied?
July 25, 2016 4:43 p.m.
Have you considered Eldritch Evolution as an alternative way to get the combo out? I run them in my deck: Silverfur Reflections and I honestly feel it's made a world of difference in this combo being competitive.
July 25, 2016 4:48 p.m.
Finally catching up on some comments ...
For anyone interested in the Clues deck Argeaux and I were talking about in Posts #35 and #38-43, it's over here: Gruul Cluues (EMN).
Eleros,
I think the current ratio (14 Wolves / 10 Pump spells) is about right for me, but there's a wide range that works, depending on your playstyle and your meta.
You can find more info (based on the SOI ZadaFur decks in the All things Wolven over here.
Thanks though, and please be assured I'll continue to refine that ratio as the season progresses!
Trev8120,
What Eleros said. You can also read it in the Strategy and Card Choices section of the deck description, under CARDS I'M NOT RUNNING AND WHY. Waxing Moon: It doesn't work with Zada or Mirrorwing. They can't be targeted by a spell that can only target Werewolves.
Like you say though, it's great in an Eldrazi Werewolf deck.
_FxZIONZ_,
Like Argeaux mentions, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar is really good in this deck. You may have already ordered her, but if you haven't yet I would hold off. Partly because even though I find this deck super-fun to play, you may not, and she is a little pricey. But also because her ability to generate 0/1 Plant tokens may be much less useful in EMN Standard than it was in SOI Standard (depending on how big a deal Liliana, the Last Hope and Savage Alliance become).
I would not replace the Nissa with Howlpack Resurgence though, unless Dromoka's Command suddenly ceases to be a thing. I'd probably try Lead by Example instead.
Good luck (and good skill) with the deck!
qrjusz,
Confront the Unknown can be a little tricky Zada or Mirrorwing, and the key is keeping track of when the spells are cast, copied, and resolve. I explain it in the Strategy and Card Choices section of the deck description, but I'll expand it a little here:
With Zada, Silverfur, and three 2/2 Wolf tokens ...
- Cast Confront the Unknown, targeting only Zada.
- Zada's ability triggers, so the spell copies, targeting each other Creature. Per Zada's Gatherer ruling, the copies are put onto the stack in whatever order you want, with the original spell (targeting Zada) on the bottom.
- Silverfur sees the copies target himself and the three Wolf tokens, so puts 4x more Wolf tokens on the battlefield.
- For this example, let's assume (1) you ordered the copies on the stack to hit the tokens first, then Silverfur, (2) all the copies resolve, and (3) you didn't have any clues already on the battlefield.
- The "top" copy resolves, so you Investigate and the first Token gets +1/+1. Then the next one down resolves, you Investigate again, and the second Token gets +2/+2. Then the next one resolves, you Investigate again and the third Token gets +3/+3. Next, the copy that targeted Silverfur resolves, you Investigate, and he gets +4/+4. Finally, the original spell resolves, you Investigate, and Zada gets +5/+5.
Hope this helps.
Thanks all!
July 25, 2016 5:28 p.m.
Vandyel,
I had considered it, but was frankly not particularly excited about it, due to so much removal in the format ... my thought was keeping Zada or Mirrorwing on the board was tough enough, and running Eldritch Evolution (or even just some Vessel of Nascency) to get them onto the battlefield and then removed was basically just handing my opponent a two-for-one.
However, I'm really glad to hear it works better than I expected, and I've give it a hard look moving forward. Thanks much!
gassydonutlychee says... #1
Try playing Clear Shot and Rabid Bite to wipe your opponents board for a decent price. Maybe take out nissa since you'll probably want to stay very aggressive, take nissa out for 2 Hanweir Garrison. Mainboard the geier reach bandits and bring in Kessig Prowler Flip, Village Messenger Flip and Ulrich of the Krallenhorde
July 17, 2016 11:35 p.m.