I think that support was starting to shift toward 16 lands(since we have 2 Prophetic Prism), and away from the Angelic Skirmisher, which would also mean no Realmwright. In fact, that looked like the majority from the beginning, though I skimmed some. Also I thought people were against Syndic of Tithes. And I would hope so.
March 6, 2013 3:50 a.m.
I vote:
Minus (Angelic Skirmisher and Syndic of Tithes).
Plus (Scab-Clan Charger, Daring Skyjek, and 4th Shambleshark).
That makes 18 creatures, and good use of battalion and evolve. I think the swarm would be our deck's win con. We're not a removal deck. We're a swarm. We should keep it focused.
I would say 6 Forest, 6 Island, 3 Plains, and the Gate for this. Though some have said they would swap out 1 Plains.
March 6, 2013 3:57 a.m.
I still think that with all the flyers we have Hands of Binding is better bet than Gridlock. I would still cut Angelic Skirmisher for fourth Shambleshark and run 16 lands with two Hands of Binding. Also I don't think we have the manabase to support Syndic of Tithes so I would swap that for Scab-Clan Charger.
March 6, 2013 4:04 a.m.
Ahem... I should have said a swarm with combat tricks. That's part of our strength.
(Caley said he wanted an argument for the Scab-Clan Charger, so there it is)
March 6, 2013 4:12 a.m.
SwiftDeath says... #6
Syndic of Tithes is a difficult card to splash for and we lose a lot of value only having the one extort creature and I think we might run into issues with consistancy with this card and someone had a very good point about Cloudfin Raptor that it is a very bad mid/late game card when you have no way to evolve it right away. I think both should be removed for Scab-Clan Charger and the fourth Shambleshark and even though it is the same cost as the syndic, Daring Skyjek is still a good card for its triggers for evolve and its aggression early on and can be potent even later in the game. using it I got a turn 5 kill with 2 shamblesharks turn 2 and 3 then turn 4 skyjek and turn 5 denizen for a total of 6 damage turn 4 and an additional 11 turn 5. this was in playtesting so there was no opposition but it could've been a turn 6-7 kill against a real deck.
March 6, 2013 4:16 a.m.
I definitely think the Syndic of Tithes is getting far too greedy with the mana base. Is there really no love for Hands of Binding? That card in my experience can do a good deal of work in the proper build and this could be something we should look into. I also feel that with the prisms there is very little need to run 3 plains with all of the multi colored cards we have at our disposal.
If we do choose to go to 16 lands(which can be manageable but potentially not the best route) I would suggest something along the lines of 7 Islands 6 Forests 2 Plains(I would desire one with two prisms if the medic wasn't such a strong card to have) and the gate. This pool is bonkers btw, I think the community did quite well....
March 6, 2013 5:42 a.m.
I'm definitely with Tenken about Hands of Binding (see my post above) and the manabase. With two prisms I don't think there's need for three plains and one would be an option if we didn't have two medics.
March 6, 2013 6:43 a.m.
My humble opinions follow:
I see no reason to remove Cloudfin Raptor. It is in our colors and it will very quickly get to an appropriate size at any point in the game. And we are short on evasiveness. In
Syndic of Tithes is a great card but we'll just be using him as a bear most of the time. An off color bear just isn't worth it. Out
Angelic Skirmisher however, is no bear and is a great beat stick. And being a later game bomb she can help us pick once our initial surge slows down. I think she should be in. That said, the best test is whether or not she delivers. What if we kept her in sideboard and swapped her in on matches where we need the late game strength? If she does well, we can main deck her. Tentatively Out.
Daring Skyjek similar reasons as syndic. Just not strong enough and consistent enough to join our early game feeding frenzy. Out
Scab-Clan Charger on color, nice combat trick and tricky to kill. In
Shambleshark consistency is good! In
I'm ok with running 16 lands.
March 6, 2013 7:52 a.m.
dorminjake says... #11
Out: Syndic of Tithes and Angelic Skirmisher
In: Scab-Clan Charger and Hands of Binding
March 6, 2013 7:56 a.m.
I changed my mind from the list I presented yesterday. Sixteen lands is probably enough.
Out: Syndic of Tithes
In: Scab-Clan Charger, Hands of Binding
Lands: 1 guildgate, 2 plains, 6 forest, 7 island
March 6, 2013 7:58 a.m.
dorminjake says... #13
Actually, nevermind about that Hands of Binding. Bring back the Charger and go +1 Shambleshark!
March 6, 2013 7:58 a.m.
I would agree with others that Syndic of Tithes requires more of a commitment to white than we are playing. Scab-Clan Charger will be more beneficial for us due to its higher defense that will trigger evolve up to making our sharks 5/4's. I also like being able to use it as a combat trick if needed. And it is also synergistic with our two Ivy Lane Denizen's.
I am also a personal fan of Hands of Binding over Gridlock. I prefer being able to take one creature out of the game indefinitely, as opposed to a few creatures once. I don't have as strong as on opinion on this one, but my vote would go there.
I look forward to seeing how the deck fares against others.
March 6, 2013 7:58 a.m.
Too bad Cockatrice is a no go. It could be worth playing this deck a few times among ourselves to see where the weaknesses lie.
Can we add the lands into the above deck so we can get the mana graph populated?
March 6, 2013 9:08 a.m.
I think we should keep Scab-Clan Charger. I think we might be able to keep Angelic Skirmisher in the sideboard as long as we have the ability to sideboard in one or two plains. If we run into a deck with a lot of kill spells that make our creatures suffer in numbers and evolve, we could board her in t make any of our creatures a threat. It would also be a good sideboard against "control" decks with their bombs.
Perhaps we should keep the mainboard just pure aggro/efficiency/tempo. 15-16 lands, our bombs would be Rust Scarab and Nimbus Swimmer. Based on the current list, I suggest:
Take out Syndic of Tithes. Take out Angelic Skirmisher. Add Shambleshark, Scab-Clan Charger, Hands of Binding. 2 plains, 7 forests, 6 islands
March 6, 2013 9:15 a.m.
MagnorCriol says... #17
-1 Syndic of Tithes - Don't get me wrong, I love Syndic, but extort is far less valuable in a deck that doesn't have a lot of white or black mana lying around. He doesn't have much value to us as a splash-color bear, so he shouldn't make the cut.
+1 Scab-Clan Charger - Good body, can evolve basically everything in our deck, works with our Ivy Lane Denizens, and can be a solid combat trick if we don't need him.
After this, I'm good with this lineup.
March 6, 2013 10:04 a.m.
Yeah, to be honest, I think this setup modified with MagnorCriol's last post is fine for me.
March 6, 2013 10:29 a.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #19
-Angelic Skirmisher, +Daring Skyjek. Want our mana base to be consistent enough to cast Shamblesharks and Simic Charms all day, so we don't want to splash for double white cards. Even if we can't drop him turn 2, the Skyjek can still trade up reliably, or end the game as a 3/1 flyer. I'm also fine putting Scab-Clan Charger in this slot as a pseudo-combat-trick.
-Syndic of Tithes, +Shambleshark. I see no reason not to run 4 of these little guys. They get unruly very quickly, and the idea of playing draw-go aggro is pretty entertaining. Our mana base cannot support Extort, and there's no reason to splash for a Grizzly Bear.
March 6, 2013 10:47 a.m.
I'm on the fence about the Angelic Skirmisher. I'm thinking now that our fixing will be okay to use her as is. She would be amazing to evolve practically everything in addition to her bomby abilities.. But we do have Rust Scarab that fits the same place pretty well.
If we take out the Skirmisher, I would replace it with Scab-Clan Charger, being a possible trick, and being green for our Ivy Lane Denizen creatures. As well as removing a land to add in Hands of Binding.
I agree that Syndic of Tithes probably won't be as useful as another Evolve creature would be, like Shambleshark. I thought our aggression is mostly based around evolving cheap creatures, so why would we want to thin the base number?
So, I would vote for one simple change for now: Minus one Syndic of Tithes to add one Shambleshark.
March 6, 2013 10:52 a.m.
I don't much like Daring Skyjek. He could theoretically evolve our Shamblesharks but only once. His flying ability is too conditional, we'd almost never attack with him without batallion due to his fragile body.
Although a curve like this would be pretty sweet: t1 Cloudfin Raptor, t2Metropolis Sprite swing 1, t3 Daring Skyjek swing 4 activating Sprite, t4 Drakewing Krasis swing 8 activating Sprite. That'd be a god hand though, and really his spot is easily filled by the Drakewing Krasis since he probably would never attack by turn three anyways.
March 6, 2013 11:06 a.m.
exarkun809 says... #22
Guys, I want to make a last effort to convince the full white splash.
We have at least 15 creatures in this deck, probably 17 or 18, and 6 or less spells.
Daring Skyjek will always be online and a 3/1 flyer for 2... that's too good to not use. Syndic of Tithes is a powerful mana sink in a deck that desperate needs a mana sink. We're just going to be dropping creatures until we're out of cards... and then what? Extort for 1! If we can CAST Syndic of Tithes, we can always extort! Angelic Skirmisher and Frontline Medic need no explanation.
But we're worried we won't fix well? We have Realmwright in the board and 2 Prisms. Put in 3 plains and we're at 6 white sources. Most importantly, we have NOTHING that is either double blue or double green! We can easily run 6 islands, 5 forests, 4 plains, and the Simic Guildgate and be fine! We'd then have 10 blue soures, 9 green sources, and 7 white sources.
In this deck, Daring Skyjek will be almost strictly better than Metropolis Sprite, which has no synergy in this deck. I think it's a cut, and I think we can cut a land (our curve is super low).
-1 Metropolis Sprite -1 land +1 Realmwright +1 Daring Skyjek and keep the Syndic of Tithes
March 6, 2013 11:20 a.m.
MagnorCriol says... #23
I agree that we shouldn't run Daring Skyjek. It's good in its niche but it's not really worth splashing for.
I just ran my lineup of the deck (with lands added) through the playtester a few times. I didn't do anything other than look at the opening hand and the first six cards we'd draw. I was able to get to double white mana by turn 6 in about 9 of the 15 of the runs (so that's about 60%), and I had turn 2 GU in 15/16 (80%). Interestingly, at 17 lands, the mana problems I was running into wasn't getting enough colors but rather simply enough - I didn't have 6 mana on turn 6 in about half the games.
Still, those are odds I'd run with if I were playing the draft. I feel comfortable running Angelic Skirmisher on 6 Forest/7 Island/3 Plains + 2 Prophetic Prism.
March 6, 2013 11:28 a.m.
I think if we're pulling in extra items like Realmwright and additional plains then we need to make sure we're getting our investment out of them. And by that I mean cards that 2 for 1. The medics clearly fit this description, The angel too. But the Syndic and Daring Skyjek. Not so much.
We can do the medics with only 2 plains and 2 Prophetic Prisms, but I don't think the additional sources are worth it to get the other 2 drops in. Especially if they hurt the strategy the rest of the deck seems to want to go in. We have lots of 1, 2 and 3 drops that all require green or blue or both. A plains clogging our hands early game could very well keep us from getting our main strategy going.
March 6, 2013 11:31 a.m.
I didn't think anyone else wanted to go full on with the white, so I wasn't going to bother trying... but if there are others wanting it, then I'm all for supporting exarkun809's suggested cuts. This would be my biggest preference.
KrazyCaley says... #1
Ok, I've advanced a set of cuts that SEEM to be more or less the consensus. The rationales I see advanced by you guys for the cuts I made are:
1 - Daring Skyjek - Most people seem to want the white cards, including Syndic and Skirmisher, but most people don't like the Skyjek.
2 - Greenside Watcher has very low support due to being too situational,
3 - Everyone seems to agree that Hydroform is bad and invites free LD,
4 - Almost no one likes Righteous Charge.
5 - Support exists for the cipher spells, but not as much for other possibilities, so I cut them, tentatively. (2x Hands of Binding and 1x Last Thoughts )
6 - Realmwright is a very debatable card; some people think two prisms is enough fixing and some do not. For now he is on the chopping block.
7 - Totally Lost is not a card with many advocates.
8 - Getting rid of one copy of Shambleshark seems to be a popular idea.
9 - Finally, Scab-Clan Charger is the cut I made that has the MOST support, and which could most easily make it back into the deck if arguments are made for its inclusion.
The cards most narrowly avoiding the chopping block for now in the court of public opinion (as measured by me) are Syndic of Tithes, Wasteland Viper, and Angelic Skirmisher.
March 6, 2013 3:34 a.m.