MagnorCriol says... #2
exarkun809 - you'd take out a pumpable always-flyer that's in one of our main colors to put in a 1-toughness sometimes-flyer in a splash color? 2 points of power is a pretty big difference, yes, but Metropolis Sprite has survivability and isn't dependent on other creatures for its evasion. It's miles better than the Skyjek in build that isn't a dedicated Battalion build. The Sprite also does have plenty of synergy with the build - she's an early game evasive threat that can evolve our Sharks and our Cloudfin Raptor and attacks freely early game without fear, unlike the Skyjek.
As for the Syndic of Tithes, I've tried splashing extort creatures in a deck that wasn't primarily W or B before. It doesn't work. Yes, it seems like it should, but it just doesn't. Having to keep that specific W open hampers your board development too much, and not using it makes it pointless to have splashed it to begin with. He's just not worth it.
March 6, 2013 11:36 a.m.
IN: Daring Skyjeck, Scab-Clan Charger,
OUT: Angelic Skirmisher, Shambleshark
Arguments follow:
If we're playing 17 land with 2 Prisms then we're not likely to hit the Skirmisher on turn 6. If we're playing very aggressive then we're probably set to win by turn 7 or so (or be out of contention for that game). I would rather have a 3/1 on turn 2 to be swinging with as most of the time, people simply won't block (at least the first attack). Scab-Clan charger is a green creature that will replace the # of green creatures in the deck for the Ivy Lane Denizen and will evolve most of the team when he comes down due to the four toughness.
I believe that with the two Prisms we can support Extort in the form of Sydnic.
Hands of Binding as a single might be a good idea. If I had to pitch a card it would probably be the Wasteland Viper
March 6, 2013 11:45 a.m.
exarkun809 says... #4
@MagnorCriol: You make some good points. I wouldn't underestimate the Daring Skyjek in this deck though. We're going to have 3 creatures on board by turn 4 or 5 every time. If we don't, our deck isn't working. And if we have 1 open mana every turn for Metropolis Sprite, we're not curving well (and I'd rather have an open source for Syndic of Tithes's extort). When I'm playing, I want to sink mana into creatures late in the game, not deciding if I should cast another creature or give Metropolis Sprite 1 more power... I'm always going to cast the creature. And the Skyjek evolves our Cloudfin Raptor and Gyre Sage better than the Sprite (and is the same for Shambleshark.
apt142 makes an awesome point too. These white creatures would need to add more value for the fixing. But, I'm making the point that we already have the fixing in place and all we need to add is Realmwright... which is a 1/1 for 1! It's still a dude that can swing, and we're not sacrificing much. Plus, I suggest dropping a land for it, which doesn't lose value (unless we screw of course!).
I definitely understand the argument that it might not be worth the risk to add white. But I really think that mana base aside, our deck is definitely better with our white creatures. And I think the fixing is definitely doable. We're going to be up against some nasty boros and orzhov decks... we need all the help we can get even if it's a risk.
March 6, 2013 12:09 p.m.
exarkun809 says... #5
Also, if we don't go full white we can't play double white Angelic Skirmisher with 4 white sources... just makes no sense. Even playing a 3 drop with 4 white sources is risky. And that means we have to start playing stuff like Scab-Clan Charger. If we end up having to play a vanilla 2/4 for 4 (which an awful giant growth ability) I'll be really sad. I hope if we dump white we add the Shambleshark and 2x Hands of Binding and just go all-out aggro.
I'd rather bump up to 6 or 7 white sources and play our great white creatures all out.
March 6, 2013 12:14 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #6
Count me on the band wagon for cutting Angelic Skirmisher and Syndic of Tithes.
The syndic should be an easy choice to cut as it is just an unremarkable grizzly bear, and we don't intend to be keeping up mana to extort with we plan to be committing another creature to the board so we evolve things. Doesn't fit in the style of deck we have. In exchange for making this cut we should put back in Scab-Clan Charger he is so valuable. Has a big butt to evolve all our creatures, and has the ability in a pinch to be an awesome combat trick. Very important card for our deck imo and he fills the combat trick / creature slot jointly. One of the reasons I feel good about running so many creatures is because this guy does double duty.
I would cut the Angelic Skirmisher and put back in the 4th Shambleshark. He is pretty much the backbone of our deck. Plus he can be tricky to handle w/ that flash.
I again want to suggest that the move to 16 lands is appropriate, and i would not run 3 plains on 16 lands i would instead run just 1 or 2 of them. But definitely no more than 2.
This leaves us with one more spot open the question becomes Realmwright for fixing or Greenside Watcher for a 2 power creature, or i could even be persuaded perhaps of sticking in 1 Hands of Binding even though i am not terribly excited about it. I think i would prefer a creature out of those 3 options and am leaning Realmwright for the mana fixing. I would suggest that if we include the Realmwright we could probably get by with just a single plains in the deck. 1 plains 2 prisms and the realmwright would probably be sufficient to enable us to reliably cast the medics.
@ nabrown2 i could not disagree more on your suggestion for Hands of Binding over the Gridlock.
Hands is useful but it doesn't have the potential to just win you the game. The grindlock allows us to send all of our creatures in unblocked and just win the game out of nowhere. You keep spells that can win you the game particularly in an agro deck that may need a just a little help pushing through a clogged board especially since we have no direct damage available to finish off an opponent. Detaining just a single creature isn't going to get it done most of the time. Besides which we don't have a ton of evasive creatures. We didn't draft any unblockable dudes and so we don't really have the Cipher deck.
March 6, 2013 12:31 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #7
to follow up on what MagnorCriol said i am an advocate of keeping the sprite the 2 toughness on Metropolis Sprite is important because it means i can easily evolve our shamble sharks as well quickly getting them to 3/2 status. While the same can not reliably be said of the 3/1 white flyer. Due to the possible fixing issues.
March 6, 2013 12:43 p.m.
SupremeAlliesCommander says... #8
We CAN add Plains and enough mana fixing to support Angelic Skirmisher. It is possible. It can be done. However, adding those plains hurts our chances of getting the necessary UG for about 10 other cards in our pool. Adding fixers like Realmwright hurts our fast aggro strategy. It also means raising the total land count, which invites tempo issues.
Better to stick with a strategy that works with 15 of our creatures than to shoehorn in a bomb and hinder the main premise of the deck.
March 6, 2013 1:26 p.m.
TikiShades says... #9
I don't think we should cut Wasteland Viper. It's a 1-drop removal in a format without a lot of it. There's no reason not to use it, in my opinion. It's Bloodrush can save a creature being blocked and kill off the blocker.
I'd definitely chop Syndic of Tithes. We won't be playing with enough white sources to activate the Extort with efficiency. I'd rather have Hands of Binding to help keep tempo, or Realmwright to color up the mana for Angelic Skirmisher. Even a fourth Shambleshark would be preferable.
I still like Angelic Skirmisher because I believe it is entirely possible to play her. It won't be turn 6, but if we can get her out, we can almost be assured the win. It'd be easier to run her with Realmwright, but that might mean we have to cut our lands down to 16. However, I don't see that as a problem, because 16 lands will still work with our really low curve.
Scab-Clan Charger is an okay card (even better in Simic decks), but I don't think we can find room for him and stick to a 40 card limit.
March 6, 2013 1:43 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #10
most people seem to favor cutting the Syndic of Tithes so i am going to advocte strongly that we insert the Scab-Clan Charger in its place for the reasons i stated above.
With out the skirmisher which... i think might be the majority opinion but am not sure at this point we have at least 1 more slot maybe 2 if we run 16 lands. (and the consensus looks like 16 is the right number) Which means we have 2 open slots. We could run any combination of the following Hands of Bindingx2 a Shambleshark or a Realmwright or Greenside Watcher but only 2 cards can make it. Seems like that is the big choice we should be focusing on. My thought is to put 1 shark back into the deck, and then pick one of the 3 remaining cards. Perhaps the shark with one Hands of Binding??
March 6, 2013 2 p.m.
dorminjake says... #11
@DeckBuilder345 I, for one, concur.
-1 Angelic Skirmisher, -1 Syndic of Tithes
+1 Scab-Clan Charger, +1 Shambleshark, +1 Hands of Binding
March 6, 2013 2:12 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #12
We have an aggressive strategy built into our card pool. The most important thing for an aggressive deck is consistency. We will lose 100% of our games if we can't play any of our spells. Angelic Skirmisher is a good card, but removes consistency from our deck. She will lose us the game as a dead card at least as often as she wins it.
We also shouldn't consider Realmwright because it has zero synergy with the strategy of the deck. Color fixing is good, but not needing color fixing is better. 1/1 creatures for 1 are almost never good in Limited formats.
March 6, 2013 2:36 p.m.
exarkun809 says... #13
I'm starting to agree with you guys.
I think I'm trying to over-complicate a deck that's going to really just need to play the exact same every time. It's more likely we'll lose a game to inconsistency than to win a game because of Daring Skyjek or Syndic of Tithes. I'm probably just mad we didn't go Boros :P
I'll agree with DeckBuilder345's cuts. Good luck KC!
March 6, 2013 2:45 p.m.
Like my last post said, my suggestions are the same as dorminjake's.
-1 Angelic Skirmisher -1 Syndic of Tithes
+1 Scab-Clan Charger +1 Shambleshark +1 Hands of Binding
March 6, 2013 2:57 p.m.
If we play 16 lands then the Skirmisher is automatically out. I would really pound home the Hands of Binding because Shambleshark doesn't evolve itself.
March 6, 2013 3:03 p.m.
dorminjake says... #16
Yeah, lose the Angelic Skirmisher and go to 16 lands.
Fill in the remaining two slots with Shambleshark number 4 and Hands of Binding and I think we're good.
March 6, 2013 3:06 p.m.
NobodyPicksBulbasaur says... #17
I like everything about this build except the Angelic Skirmisher. It should be removed in place of the 4th Shambleshark. No, they don't evolve each other, but most of our deck will evolve them at least once.
If we cut the Skirmisher there could also be a case for dropping to 16 lands and adding in a Hands of Binding to hold tempo. It won't give us a clear board every time, but locking down their biggest threat is always going to be beneficial.
March 6, 2013 3:09 p.m.
Seems like the people currently posting agree with taking out Angelic Skirmisher, adding the last Shambleshark and adding one copy of Hands of Binding while running 16 lands - 2 plains, 6 islands, 7 forests.
This is exactly the list I currently have on Goody's GTC Draft. Who else agrees with this list?
March 6, 2013 3:14 p.m.
ChiefWannaHacka says... #19
I'm a fan of the 16 lands, so if cutting Angelic Skirmisher gets the community there I'm down. Goody's list seems like what we should end up with since the one of Hands of Binding, when drawn, could squeeze our bigger ground threats through.
March 6, 2013 3:18 p.m.
I like the build the way that it is. I think we should run what we have set.
About the Angelic Skirmisher though, I think we are too divided on the subject and should therefore let KrazyCaley make the final decision on whether or not to keep it or cut it based on his playstyle. After all he is the one that will be playing the deck.
March 6, 2013 3:20 p.m.
KrazyCaley says... #22
Nah, I try never to add my opinion unless there truly is a deadlock, and so far I think the Skrimisher debate isn't quite deadlocked.
March 6, 2013 3:23 p.m.
Also, just playtesting this deck has made me pretty happy with it. I just had one game with t1 Cloudfin Raptor, t2 Metropolis Sprite swing 1, t3 Drakewing Krasis swing 3
Turn 4, I had 3 islands and 1 forest in play. Play Simic Charm on Sprite, tap the other two blue to make it a 6/3 flier, swing for 11, they're at 5 life and I have another Simic Charm in hand.
Many other playtests come up with similarly awesome scenarios for our deck. I'm liking it
March 6, 2013 3:24 p.m.
SupremeAlliesCommander says... #24
I'll support 16 lands with the Skirmisher removed. And I think Goody's version of the deck works.
Goody's GTC Draft gets my vote.
March 6, 2013 3:37 p.m.
DeckBuilder345 says... #25
I am in agreement with what has been said so far. Angelic Skirmisher out adding Shambleshark and adding one Hands of Binding. I believe 16 lands is the right number to go with. - the suggested 2 plains, 6 islands, 7 forests sounds reasonable...although maybe 7 island 6 forest would be better... not certain.
sewellius says... #1
Don't forget we have an additional mana source in Gyre Sage.
March 6, 2013 11:34 a.m.