Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #2
I may be misunderstanding what you're suggesting, but my real issue is whether or not Lotus Cobra is worth it. In order to ensure I get the best out of it, as it produce 2 mana on a turn where I drop a fetch and activate it, I have to run lots of fetches. The problem is, this often costs me 6-9 life per game, by turn 3, regardless of whether I get Lotus Cobra on the board. The alternative is to run different mana dorks and a less painful base of dual lands like Copperline Gorge and Rootbound Crag. However, not running Lotus Cobra means that I can't hit a mana dork with Collected Company that can help me on the turn it comes into play - which is sometimes important in the deck (e.g. if I don't hit 2 elementals, Lotus Cobra can make up for it by helping me cast Assault Strobe). So I'm not sure what to do, or if the deck is effective enough to live with the painful land base as is. Thanks for the input in any case.
June 21, 2015 3:38 p.m.
TheGodofNight says... #3
@ formayor
Sadly, Lotus Cobra isn't a stand alone mana dork like some of it's other counter parts. It relies entirely on land drops to be effective, and at a certain point, you don't want to be pulling land, you want to be pulling and playing your win cons. Additionally, in the modern format, your life total is a resource that you are using to gain advantage. If you are losing 6 - 9 life, but in return, dealing lethal damage, the loss of 6 - 9 life is worth it. This becomes a matter of balance. If the life loss is too much, then you may want to switch tactics. I would drop the lands that aren't in your colors and stick to the lands that are in your colors. While Lotus Cobra can net you a total of 2 mana a turn, plus whatever your current land count is, it's a pretty big maybe. Just putting in the lands you need and some conventional rampers might be more effective and consistent. Proxy out a version with less fetches and play test them both. Record the results and tweak it as you test it. Hope this helps.
June 21, 2015 4:44 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #4
Thanks, TheGodofNight. I have been playtesting a version with -2 Lotus Cobra, -2 Bloom Tender, -1 Radha, Heir to Keld, -1 Arc Runner, +2 Hell's Thunder, +4 Birds of Paradise. Next up is the same deck with all Cobras removed and a 6-7 fetchland base.
June 21, 2015 4:55 p.m.
To answer your main question, I think it's close. I would definitely add a playset of Birds of Paradise before I added Lotus Cobra, but I still think it is pretty good because this deck requires and . I think you should definitely try Lotus Cobra and if it doesn't work, move on to something else.
Here are my suggestions for the rest of the deck -
For the manabase, it is looking pretty good, but I think you should definitely play some number of Fire-Lit Thicket.
You mentioned Bloom Tender in your description as well, and I think that card is pretty interesting. If you wanted to make it better, you could try things like Kitchen Finks (although I'm not sure that is what this deck wants to be doing). As it stands, Bloom Tender produces at most, which is another reason Fire-Lit Thicket would be really nice.
One card I think would be great in this deck is Burning-Tree Emissary. It would help your Bloom Tender hit , it is another creature for Collected Company, and it helps with the alternative beatdown plan. This card also just happens to be great with Fire-Lit Thicket ;)
Manamorphose might be something to try as well. It helps you hit your pretty steep mana requirements and it cantrips, so it might be worth a shot.
I think Arc Runner is pretty poor in this deck because it doesn't have trample like Groundbreaker or Ball Lightning. Hell's Thunder seems much better here because it dodges Lightning Bolt, has evasion, and has recursion like you mentioned.
Primal Forcemage is pretty interesting in this deck. I think Hell's Thunder would help you further abuse it, as well as maybe Hellspark Elemental. I'm not sure if Primal Forcemage is actually good enough for the deck, but there are definitely ways to get value from it.
Cream of the Crop seems like my least favorite card in the deck. It helps you dig, but you don't actually draw the card. Manamorphose could help fix this, but I'm still not sure it is what the deck wants to be doing.
Let me know if you have any questions, and good luck with the deck :)
June 21, 2015 5:34 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #6
tclaw12 - Thanks for all your thoughts on the deck! I think at least 4 -drop mana dorks would improve the deck, as it has very little to do on turn 1 as it stands. But I certainly don't want to hit those guys with CoCo, so I'll mix in some other elementals, including Hellspark Elemental, which didn't initially strike me as being good value to hit with CoCo, but it still fits in here - it gives me affordable recursion and adds a good bit of value to Primal Forcemage.
To clarify, what I really want the deck to do is throw 12-18 damage at the opponent when I resolve CoCo. This means hitting a couple elementals, and hopefully combo-ing with Primal Forcemage and/or Assault Strobe. Primal Forcemage is normally pretty bad, but it's okay value here, I think. Though I may change it to a 2-of and throw in 2 Temur Battle Rage. Since the deck is built on the 1-turn elementals that are hard to hardcast in a multicolor deck, I want to maximize damage on the turn CoCo gets them into play.
Cream of the Crop is a little weak, but I really needed a reliable way to dig and find CoCo, and I really liked that it reliably found a second CoCo, so the deck still has gas on turn 4 or 5. It's really a plan B if I don't naturally draw at least 1 CoCo.
I definitely agree about Arc Runner, and will probably drop it, as the trample is just too important here. And I will certainly be trying the deck with filter lands, check lands, etc., without Lotus Cobra and see how it goes.
June 22, 2015 1:51 p.m.
Force of Savagery? Combos perfectly with Primal Forcemage and Collected Company. And using Assault Strobe on it makes it even better.
June 22, 2015 5:39 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #9
Wait. Force of Savagery doesn't have haste. If it comes into play, even with Primal Forcemage on the board, doesn't it die at end of turn before I can attack with it?
June 23, 2015 1:55 a.m.
Hmm, good point. Maybe Concordant Crossroads? It wouldn't be hard to pull off in G/R if you wanted to, but I'm not sure how much it would change your deck.
June 23, 2015 11:26 a.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #11
I think that's ultimately a different deck, probably with Mass Hysteria in Modern. Could be interesting to splash red in CoCo elves. I've run Thousand-Year Elixir in Elf decks with some success.
June 23, 2015 2:01 p.m.
the_physicist says... #12
Life's Legacy might be able to compete with or replace outright Cream of the Crop. Let's put it this way, the risk of legacy is that they kill the creature in response. Well, if the thing attacked them and didn't get killed, they probably don't have the removal to do it during your second main phase.
Also, something akin to a Warstorm Surge would be really threatening if you have to top-deck for a few turns late. Cheaper cost alternatives would be Soul's Fire or even Rite of Consumption if you can afford to splash black.
Also addressing your "Pro-tip", I will point out that you should ALWAYS be casting CoCo on your opponents turn if you can help it. If you cast it during the end step, all of the "at the beginning of the end step sacrifice..." will not take place, because the creatures were not on the battlefield at the beginning of the end step. They will then be able to attack for you next turn, with tons of mana untapped to do whatever you like with...
June 24, 2015 5:33 p.m.
the_physicist says... #13
Let me change my "ALWAYS" cast CoCo end of turn to a "sometimes" now that I see the whole Primal Forcemage thing going on.
June 24, 2015 5:37 p.m.
For Life's Legacy, players can't respond to a cost being paid, as it doesn't use the stack. If you decide to sacrifice a creature to it, they can only Stifle it.
June 24, 2015 5:48 p.m.
+1 this is awesome. you should run some utility "toolbox" creatures too, to hit off of CC. Reclamation Sage, Eternal Witness and something like Grim Lavamancer are perfect for this build.
June 24, 2015 6:08 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #16
Life's Legacy is a really good suggestion, thanks. I'll try throwing in more 2-drop mana dorks that make the 2 mana to cast it (and refill that part of the curve) and see how it goes. On the "pro-tip" - It felt like the nature of Primal Forcemage meant that someone might intuit the opposite of what you thought and think you need to often or always cast CoCo on your own turn (even without a forcemage in play - you might hit one with CoCo) so I just wanted to clarify, as well as point out that the deck did have some minor defensive capability.
June 24, 2015 6:09 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #17
Thanks, CricketYT. I've got Reclamation Sage in the sideboard, and have been meaning to add Eternal Witness, since I saw how useful it was in other CoCo builds.
June 24, 2015 6:17 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #18
And as far as Warstorm Surge-type effects go, I did consider Fling. I think the enchantment route is too costly in a deck I don't expect to live past turn 5 if it can't win by then. I've even considered Twinflame. But ultimately, I think 4x Assault Strobe is about as good as it's gonna get.
June 24, 2015 7:14 p.m.
notKingCole says... #19
Incandescent Soulstoke could definitely find a home here, making your elementals easier to cast and buffing them simultaneously. As for Rootbound Crag, its effectiveness in the first few turns dwindles with the Copperline Gorges and Fire-Lit Thickets. Kudos on the creative use of CoCo!
June 25, 2015 6:40 p.m.
Wizard_of_the_Broke says... #20
Thanks, notKingCole. I like Soulstoke, and use him in a mono-red elemental budget deck I really like, but I think this build is gonna replace that. Still working out land base. May add fetches in place of Copperline Gorge and/ or Rootbound Crag. Fire-Lit Thicket however, is pretty important to being able to hardcast the 6/1 elementals.
June 25, 2015 8:19 p.m.
Maelstrom004 says... #21
If you can set up your mana base to reliably play a forest then I recommend Utopia Sprawl. It has the advantage of producing mana the turn it is played.
January 6, 2016 4:06 p.m.
EpicFreddi says... #22
I love this, I want this, I'll build this.Maybe I'll splash white for the Spark Trooper. 6 Life seems to be a good thing.
Epidilius says... #1
For your land base question, just run more shocklands that tap for one of your colours. Instead of Forests run Overgrown Tombs. Instead of Mountains run Sacred Foundry.
The Overgrown Tombs can be fetched by your Bloodstained Mires, and the Sacred Foundrys can be fetched by your Windswept Heaths.
This means that all of your fetchlands can get all of your shocklands. No matter what colour mana you require, any fetch can get it.
June 21, 2015 3:04 p.m.