Behgz I disagree about Psychic Strike in the post-rotation for two reasons: first the undying and flashback mechanics are gone, which lessens the need for denial that also exiles and second the b/u/1 CMC is easier to meet then uu1, which matters as the buddy lands are gone. The added mill is a minor bonus. I agree with the rest of what you said.
Right now my main concern is that i have too many win-con and not having enough draw power. I've put in Pilfered Plans , but as a sorcery it's no Think Twice .
September 29, 2013 9:13 a.m.
danimal197 says... #3
I'll say it again, why would you ever even consider Traumatize when Jace, Memory Adept is a better play in almost every situation. I actually like the incremental value of the mill counterspells.. 2x AEtherling seems like too many. I'd definitely run 4x Supreme Verdict , I'd run at least 3x Ashiok, and I would definitely run more lands, because you want to hit every land drop in this deck. All you really have to do is survive long enough to slowly tick them down with millstone. You basically are trying to play esper from the previous meta only you replace Nephalia Drownyard with the more fragile Millstone .
September 29, 2013 12:50 p.m.
Thanks for the feedback danimal197. I didn't play esper in the previous meta. What I mostly played was American control in various forms and I built this deck with that in mind.
Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver seems really good. I'm considering bumping her up. If I ran her at 3x (or even 4x), I'd feel better about dropping her early and not worrying about whether she died (I don't know if a second Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver could use her -X to target a creature exiled by an earlier one). Anyway, at 2x I play her more conservatively (ideally waiting until 6 mana with at least one hard counter in place). But at 3 CMC, she screams early mill aggression that can quickly grab creatures if she's not dealt with swiftly. Thoughts?
The maybe board could better be described as a doubtful board. They're cards that hit my radar screen and haven't completely dropped off yet. I agree that Traumatize is worse than Jace, Memory Adept , which is why it's not in there. I did take your advice and moved 1x AEtherling to sideboard, I felt like there were too many win-con cards in there with it at 2x and elspeth at 2x and jace at 2x. I also bumped the land count to 25. You might be correct in that there should be a 4th Supreme Verdict in there somewhere, I would guess the sideboard for aggro matchups and not mainboard. That will require playtesting.
The sideboard is what needs the most work and I think it's somewhat meta dependent. For example I looked at Illness in the Ranks , if token generation is running rampant that sort of solution might be needed (although it hurts my own Elspeth, so that's probably a bad example). Unfortunately, I think Purphoros still triggers with soldiers, even with illness out (I believe the soldier token enters the battlefield, Purphoros triggers, and then the token dies), so probably not the answer.
Anyway, the maybe board is mostly possible sideboard cards.
September 30, 2013 1:36 p.m.
Looks very nasty don't really know to say about it as far as suggestions go as I don't really play esper but I would be worried if I played up against a deck like this lots of removal and threats and things of that nature. Overall very sweet deck I give you a +1 sir for being bad ass.
October 1, 2013 6:42 p.m.
I'd replace Elspeth, Sun's Champion with Lingering Souls . 6 mana are WAY too much in a mill deck, you need to always have enough mana for control and removal.
And i think that Dimir Charm is more appropiate than Azorius Charm in this deck
Check my mill deck for ideas ;)
October 2, 2013 5:46 a.m.
Thanks for the comments and +1!
mycurse7726 breaking is ok, but that slot is better filled with either removal or draw. Jace and Ashiok get the mill done.
Runic86 Lingering Souls is no longer in standard. I like Azorius Charm better. I can bounce a creature and exile it next turn with Ashiok or mill it. I like the card draw it provides and even the lifegain possibility is useful.
October 2, 2013 4:50 p.m.
Have you considered Codex Shredder instead of Millstone ?
It doesn't mill as quickly, but it provides a chance to get a second usage out of one of your spells.
October 2, 2013 5:13 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #16
I have to agree with ericellis, Codex Shredder is extremely efficient in that it can come out for cheaper and it requires no mana input. Also, it can allow you to use it's sacrifice once you get to late game and it's mill isn't all that relevant anymore (you've just played Jace, Memory Adept for example) to go and get Supreme Verdict from the grave at their end step.
Also, don't forget about the standard version of a Swiss Army knife: Merciless Eviction for the sideboard.
October 3, 2013 12:52 p.m.
ericellis that's an interesting idea. One thing I really miss is my buddy Snapcaster Mage and being able to dip into my graveyard midgame. That would let me reuse a lot of removal/draw, etc. I put Millstone in there without much thought, honestly. I was looking at having extra mana and how to capitalize on it at EoT. Thanks!
October 3, 2013 12:56 p.m.
Ohthenoises you ninja'd my response. I like the switch to Codex Shredder . Done!
Merciless Eviction is something I forgot. I agree that it's very useful, especially with the exile. But at 6 CMC, ugh. I ran Terminus for awhile as a 2ndary wrath (behind Supreme Verdict in my American control deck) last cycle and never liked that 6 CMC cost for a wrath. This is a "great in theory, no idea in practice" moment. I'll put it 1x into the sideboard over a 4th Supreme Verdict . Thanks!
October 3, 2013 1:03 p.m.
Ohthenoises says... #19
The fact that it can hit artifacts and enchantments it HUGE. If you're havin God problems I feel bad for you son.
October 3, 2013 1:08 p.m.
The more I look at this brew the more I fear it lol that Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver did some work for you in those games, was wondering how a interesting card like that would play out and you demonstrated that nicely. Seems like Esper is very strong in standard these now really like what have going here good job overall I would +1 it again if I could :]
October 3, 2013 1:13 p.m.
Oh I agree, and that's why I've added 1 to the sideboard. But when I put this deck together, the god problem is why I have 4x Detention Sphere (instead of say Doomblade) and (less ideally) 3x Far / Away /4x Azorius Charm /denial mainboard, plus two Cyclonic Rift in the sideboard. All could address the God problem. Yes, I doubt I could get someone to attack with a god into Azorius Charm , but if one were so foolish that puts it right on top for the mill/Ashiok exile. Far / Away will bounce it (maybe force the sacrifice), but I would need denial or Thoughtseize to finish it off. Yes, the god problem is an issue, but I think I'm about as prepared as I can be for it. No?
October 3, 2013 1:22 p.m.
fluffybunnypants says... #22
Pilfered Plans no bueno. Read the Bones will be better.
I ran a best two out of three against my midrange.
Game 1: You were mana screwed but you managed to get an Obzedat, Ghost Council from my deck with Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver , but not before I had my own beaters out. I promptly killed both and beat you down with my other Obzedat and a Desecration Demon .
Game 2: I drew too well. I picked apart your hand before there was much you could do about it. You d-sphered my two desecration demons, bounced and then tried to away my Boros Reckoner once it attacked again but I sacked my keyrune instead. Rakdos's Return and another Boros Reckoner swing for lethal because Thoughtseize showed me there was no counter in hand.
You need the deck digging capabilities of Read the Bones . I actually mostly used Millstone to mill through the deck because the answers weren't coming fast enough. You also didn't have enough oomph to protect your walkers in the situation I put you in. A Jace, Memory Adept did hit the board but I was really rathering it were a Jace, Architect of Thought because I needed to dig through the deck. I know it's a mill deck so Big Jace fits, but you don't have enough draw to get through a good amount of hand disruption. Maybe more Sphinx's Revelation s are an order, but I certainly recommend some Little Jaces and Read the Bones to help you dig for answers.
Essentially, I think the issue is this deck is built like Snapcaster Mage is still standard legal.
October 3, 2013 2:31 p.m.
Thanks fluffybunnypants. I do miss Snapcaster Mage . Do you like Read the Bones over Underworld Connections in this deck? It's one big dig versus continual dig. I haven't played much black, but did lose to someone working the Underworld Connections before. For now, I'll swap Read the Bones over Pilfered Plans , it does dig better. I agree about adding Jace, Architect of Thought , the question is how to get him in (maybe forget about Codex Shredder . It goes back to Epochalyptiks article Pandora's Deckbox: Flexibility and Deck Strength: Jace, Architect of Thought adds flexibility and sustainability, while Jace, Memory Adept promotes the mill win-con (resiliency?) and a little sustainability.
What do you think about:
-2 Pilfered Plans
, +2 Read the Bones
+2 Jace, Architect of Thought
-1 Jace, Memory Adept
-1Azorius Charm
or -2 Codex Shredder
?
What do you think?
October 3, 2013 3:16 p.m.
There are a few changes i would recommend you make to your 75, you can choose to ignore me but keep in mind I did make top 32 last weekend at scg Worcester with esper so I do know somewhat of what I am talking about.
Add Jace, Architect of Thought . I can't stress this enough. Little Jace is your best card in literally any match. He gives you much needed draw ability and slows down hyper aggressive decks by at least 2 turns or more depending on how many 1/x's they have on the field. You will be astonished at how many aggressive decks simply lose to removal spell into jace.
Pilfered Plans is bad. The mill 2 that is tacked on is very minimal and often doesn't even matter. Not to mention it is worse on the mana base than Read the Bones is. Speaking of Read the Bones , i wouldn't even play it. If you feel like you need a draw spell its because you aren't playing enough Jace, Architect of Thought , seriously, that guy does everything. If you do add Jace and still feel like you need draw spells, Divination is by far the best because you don't have to pay 2 life, and it is very easy to cast.
I would cut a Far / Away for a 4th Supreme Verdict . The reason being is that far costs 5 mana to fuse, where verdict costs 4 mana. Against hyper aggressive decks 4 and 5 mana is the difference between life and death. You can argue that you don't want to make that change because Far / Away offers more utility, but in aggressive matchups you are going to need a wrath effect, or you will die. Simply bouncing a creature or making them sacrifice a creature is not going to be enough to slow them down.
Syncopate is better than Psychic Strike . Being able to counter something like a turn 2 Domri Rade can be the difference between life and death. The mill is very insignificant because when you start milling with big Jace, you will have to have milled over at least 8 cards for it to effect their clock at all, assuming you play him on turn 5.
Elixir of Immortality is better than Codex Shredder . Both do generally the same thing, but elixir does it better. Not only can you just randomly pop it off for 5 life against aggro, but against control or midrange, it insures that you are never going to run out of gas.
As far as sideboard changes, I would add 3x Fiendlsayer Paladin. That card is nutty against any aggressive deck. Also, Glare of Heresy
and Last Breath
are all very powerful sideboard tools. I don't really want to go on a page long rant about how bad Gainsay
is, so just trust me when I tell you to play Negate
over it.
October 3, 2013 3:21 p.m.
The only suggestion I can think of to add would be some Chilli P
Behgz says... #1
when considering mill as an option, you have to see it as a realistic win-con, not just a by-product of winning with Consuming Aberration via combat damage at which point the mill was never the end goal and thus wasted time/resources. the only real cards needed to win via mill are Traumatize and Jace, Memory Adept aside from Mindgrind and/or Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver nothing else is needed to finish them off through mill, so don't be tempted by the lackluster counter Psychic Strike or even Breaking as an extra mill spell because the mill those cards provide is essentially a drop in the bucket and not worth devoting a slot in the deck to. Just some quick advice, kinda busy today, i'll check back on it later.
September 27, 2013 6:13 p.m.