and also, why not springbloom druid??

Immortalatom too slow for typical cEDH pods and is a 2 card combo that doesn't win the game, and requires a lot of setup to boot.

PeaceAbolisher what exactly do any of those cards do? this deck doesn't want rituals, phyrexian altar is a bad sac effect since it costs 3 and isn't a creature, and springbloom druid is just plain bad. Please keep in mind the deck is tailored with a cEDH metagame in mind.

with that thing in consideration, wouldnt be putting ikaeus a thing to consider? since he is overall a good card than can ez be tutored for and brought to the batlefield bringing overall good sht???

PeaceAbolisher We used to run him. But his role was taken over by the melina lines. Adding him for value doesn't fit in the deck because almost any time you may want to grab him it would just be easier and most beneficial to grab hulk or raziketh

PeaceAbolisher Mikaeus is uncastable. Again please keep in mind this is built for cEDH. 6 cmc cards that don't draw cards or affect the board are not playable in this format. Mikaeus used to be in the deck for a different combo lkne but has been replaced by Melira lines which are better because the pieces are actually castable.

another sidenote: 6 cmc cards in general that must be cast and aren't part of a combo chain are not playable in cEDH PeaceAbolisher. even 5cmc is pushing it.

pao2 What do you think about Ravenous Slime, as a stax piece against hulk? If you like it, what card do you think it should replace?

janushif there is no point trying to combat flash hulk. This deck is not equipped to do so. That card does not reliably come out early enough; a better card would be Leyline of the Void but even that is sketchy.

I took this deck to a few commander tournaments and it definitely did what it is supposed to, but every game I play with this deck makes me realize, why I dislike cEDH. It is just hit or miss most of the time. If my opponent resolves Ad Nauseam at the end of his turn 2 (my turn 1), there is absolutely nothing I can do. And if I go first and open Protean Hulk, Lesser Masticore, Mana Crypt, Bayou and Necromancy I win without interference. Also, almost no one in my regular LGS plays cEDH and this deck does not fare well against regular EDH decks. It either wins way too fast, is too resilient for the other players to stop, or I just brick too much to win in a reasonable time.

But there are also many things I like about this deck specifically, namely it's speed and consistency. And I am not talking about what turn it can go into combo, but rather it always having a fast start and not many bad opening hands (aside from drawing combo pieces). Since Meren is my favorite commander, I decided to make this deck into a reanimator/toolbox deck.

And now we reach the reason for me commenting: I lack a win condition. I always play decks that are "perfect" within the boundaries I set for myself when building that deck and it is not uncommon that I am asked to play another deck, after winning a game. And that is what I want to avoid. I find that most people don't particularly dislike losing to combo, as long as they feel like it was "fair", myself included. But to me it is one of the worst things to happen in a commander game, if I have to explain to someone why they are not allowed to play the game anymore and that they have to scoop up all their cards now. In my experience, it is always bad if a player wins in a single turn and that everyone prefers to be killed by an army of creatures (or any "foreseeable" thing for that matter), because it just feels "more fair".

So how does this deck win, when combo is entirely off the table? The wincon I most adore is for sure Queen Marchesa's. It combines Group Slug, Pillowfort, Politics and strategic resource management to "control the game without controlling it". It punished decks for what they do best without removing their ability to play the game. It only strikes down other people's strategies when they point their aggression towards the player piloting the Marchesa deck and manages to keep it's opponents in line trough "fear". Once the other players are done fighting and only one victor emerges, it is time to use up all the stored resources to utterly crush the last remaining foe. Truly wonderful

So please tell me if you can think of any "fair and fun" wincon for this deck. I also always liked the idea of Groupslug, as it can't ever be unfair, because it only punished opponents for what they are doing. It does not exclude anyone from the game, while still keeping everything in check. The only decks that need to be destroyed are these glass-cannon cEDH decks. Most of them combo and win, or fail to do so and lose. I do no know a way to make a game enjoyable for this kind of deck, so it just just be crushed.

TCG-Player I sideboard out about 15 cards to turn this into casual, and my wincon is repeatedly reanimating Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Kokusho, the Evening Star. Non-infinite, not oppressive, but powerful and gives you a huge life buffer.

Can you elaborate more on the inclusion of Grim Flayer and Frostfang? Never a fan of creatures that require combat damage to do anything as they can so easily be dead cards. In cedh, aren't it normal that you almost never have the opportunity to attack because of all those stax effects? I would prefer creatures that do something right away.

Flayer comes down early enough to have an impact and is amazing card selection, and can turn Vampiric/Worldly Tutor into Entomb.

Frostfang is a Pod/EE target mostly and does something right away since it doesn't need to attack to get the effect. Attacking with your other creatures is enough.

Hi pao2 i am using your list as a guidance on what to run on my semi-cedh Hulkweaver (used to be Karador testing Nethroi currently),so i have 2 suggestion and 2 questions if i may.
suggestions:
Wake the Dead. Since you run Apprentice Necromancer why not run his instant brother?
Altar of Dementia. A 2 mana fill the graveyard and can win with both combos.
questions:
1.Why not Carrion Feeder,Phyrexian Delver for the redundancy.
2.Is Natural Order that bad? it feels like its exactly the same cost/ability as Pattern of Rebirth and i am honestly thinking or replacing birthing pod to it. Pod will tutor my pieces but at the same mana with a sac outlet on the field i win the game.

i would be honored in case you wanted to check my deck: Nethroi Hulkweaver

oh and 1 more question.
have you tried out Imp's Mischief? is it any decent at all as a combo stopper/ protector?

With the Ikoria and C20 going to be out, any thoughts on inclusions? The only card that I am thinking is Fiend Artisan. Abilities seemed pretty relevant but it feel like too slow. I wouldn't be surprised to see you say no to this one.

Gakros Wake the Dead is fine in hulk-only builds; but this build has Razaketh. Your reanimation spells should be able to reanimate Razaketh on your turn.

Altar of Dementia is not very good. It costs 2 mana, can't be recurred easily, and can't be tutored as easily. It is redundant and not needed.

Carrion Feeder has been in the deck since day 1.

Phyrexian Delver was in the older build with Mikaeus + Ballista; in the Melira build Delver is largely unnecessary.

Natural Order is fine in pure hulk builds, but it's still a 4 mana play that doesn't sacrifice hulk. I don't like the card very much. Pattern of Rebirth was also cut for the same reason. You are crazy for wanting to cut Birthing Pod; it is easily the strongest toolbox and value option in the deck that has ridiculous synergy with Meren.

Imp's Mischief is a fine card, I just don't have space for it and it's very niche. If you're worried about counterspells just run Autumn's Veil in addition to Veil of Summer.

Zodiac137 Fiend Artisan is too slow. Nothing from C20 or Ikoria for this deck.

Meren was my first venture into EDH, and I'm looking to take this list to my cEDH table after piloting things such as Yidris, Blood Pod, Muldrotha, JVP, and more. Thanks for the effort you've put in.

Just curious, what makes Fiend Artisan too slow? I assume its the two turn wait time and the non-insignificant mana investment. I just figured with Flash being banned now, the meta will be slowing significantly and the card seems like a good sac outlet plus a tutor wrapped up into one cheap to cast package.

please note that i will no longer be keeping up with discussion on this deck on this page. see the top of the primer for the new link.

sIllverback basically yes. it's not a good sac outlet at all, and the tutor ability is slow.

Why not Run the Cabal Coffers, Urborg combo or at the very least Urborg?

@Pao Also What would you replace Mox Diamond with if you could not get one?

XinZhao if you think cabal coffers is any good in cedh i don't know what to tell you. by the time it starts netting you mana it's too late, it is also poop in a 2 color deck with no good way to tutor lands. it literally does nothing in the first 3 turns which is when you need to be doing stuff. it is an awful, awful card and there is a reason you only see it in casual lists.

if you can't get mox diamond, you can just run boreal druid or something.

as for urborg, there is no compelling reason to include it. it's basically a swamp that gets hosed by blood moon, i'd rather play a basic swamp since many of the lands allow you to access both colors anyway.

pao2

Would you be so kind, to post or tell me what cards you would change for your casual version?

thanks :-)

I really want to play this deck I lack Survival of the fittest, Earthcraft, Nul Rod, LED Do you think it will still work If I change them to Chain of Smog, Dina, Witherbloom Apprentice for another wincon? and Imp's mischief, Slaughter pact for interrupt and protection