Traveler247 says... #2
I'm going to suggest adding one more Plains. I doubt this happens to you currently, but if you get unlucky land drops, and have to fetch your plains with some search for basics, it can easily be destroyed and you can't get another. This used to happen to me occasionally in my meta, but I just added a second so it would almost completely stop being a problem. If I had to pick a land to replace with a plains, I would choose Terramorphic Expanse.
I'm sure I'll have more suggestions at some point, but I'm going to bed for now.
January 16, 2015 12:49 a.m.
TheFanatic says... #3
@Traveler247 I've been meaning to do that, it's definitely nice to have an extra Plains to fetch with all my cards that can only grab basic lands. I'll cut an Island for now. Thanks!
January 16, 2015 2:47 a.m.
Indigoindigo says... #4
I can't make much sense of what you removed and for what (lots of + and - in the side meny). Could you give a quick run-through of what and why?
January 16, 2015 11:22 a.m.
TheFanatic says... #5
@Indigoindigo Yeah, I'm not sure why the site made the update list so large. I really only changed a few cards.
-1 Soul of the Harvest, +1 Garruk, Caller of Beasts: I've found Soul of the Harvest too be rather slow and win-more in this deck, as it requires me to have creatures in hand or an active flicker engine on board in order to create any advantage. Garruk is able to draw cards on an empty board, and my deck is about 40% creatures so he should generally hit at least 2 cards.
-1 Farseek, +1 Saffi Eriksdotter: Farseek is a great ramp spell, but it's a pretty poor draw in the mid-to-late game. I want to test out Saffi as another method of recursion that is both tutorable and easy to recur with Reveillark and Sun Titan.
-1 Rite of Replication, +1 Restoration Angel: Since Rite of Replication is basically a 9 mana card in this deck, I've found that although it's very powerful and can win games, it's just slower than my other win conditions (e.g. Craterhoof Behemoth) and harder to tutor. I'm giving Restoration Angel a shot for now, since it's instant-speed flicker. The idea is that I can use it to stop targeted removal and to flicker creatures at instant-speed to break up combos. If it doesn't work out, Rite will probably go back in.
The rest of the changes are all in the mana base. I just wanted to balance out the colors a bit.
One change I'm considering but haven't made is -1 Conjurer's Closet, +1 Thragtusk. Closet is slow and is a huge target, whereas Thrag seems like it could be a solid value creature. This change would probably also get my artifact and enchantment count low enough to allow for Bane of Progress in the main, likely over Deadwood Treefolk. What are your thoughts?
January 16, 2015 11:56 a.m.
Have you consider anything like Temur Sabertooth? He's good for flickering small things at instant speed.
January 16, 2015 1:38 p.m.
TheFanatic says... #7
@dbpunk I did notice that in the spoilers, but since it can only make itself indestructible I'm not really a huge fan. It would definitely be useful when facing a board wipe, but otherwise this deck isn't really looking to return creatures to its hand - it would rather return them directly to the battlefield.
January 16, 2015 1:50 p.m.
Ok I figured since you weren't using Species Gorger or Roaring Primadox either
January 16, 2015 2 p.m.
Indigoindigo says... #9
I have the same thoughts as you when it comes to Soul of the Harvest, and Garruk seems like a great alternative. Deadwood Treefolk was cut from my own list quite early, it's only good if there's several creature cards that you actually want to recur in the graveyard. Thragtusk has been recommended to me several times, but I haven't got my hands on one yet. Probably good.
January 16, 2015 4:52 p.m.
Traveler247 says... #10
So I've been tinkering with Bant flicker for quite a while. I ended up building a very powerful combo control version of the deck, but it wasn't fun so I've since migrated away from any infinite combos. If do you choose to go that route, the three easiest combos, in my opinion, are Time Warp + recursion, Palinchron + lots of things, and Phyrexian Altar + Sun Titan & Saffi Eriksdotter or any two of: Karmic Guide, Saffi Eriksdotter, or Reveillark. But those are boring as all hell. First off, my deck is here: Phelddagrif Can Blink Too! if you're curious (I switch to Roon if it's a more serious game), and I created a rough Roon primer here: Traveler247's Roon Primer, but it's somewhat outdated, and the analyses is iffy. It's got a lot of good card ideas though.
Anyhow, in your specific deck, I'm first going to mention that your deck is "designed to control the board and gain advantage through ETB/LTB effects using flicker/blink abilities as engines." So, overall, you're building a control deck, but here's the deal: counterspells are a beautiful thing. Here are a few good ones if you want to add a few:
Arcane Denial
Voidslime
Hinder
Spell Crumple
Counterspell
Dissipate
Here are also some specific cards you should consider testing (sorry if some are already in the deck, I tried to check them all):
Consecrated Sphinx - This is literally the best draw spell in EDH. It's game-endingly powerful. It isn't ETB, but it's just so good.
Ixidron - This is interesting...It's a very curious way to deal with commanders (they aren't in the command zone, but they aren't useable). It also deals with Avacyn, Angel of Hope and other powerful things. And your creatures can still be flickered to make them face-up again.
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner - I often find that, as annoying as this can be for you, if you are about to get out Prophet of Kruphix and Consecrated Sphinx, this is an easy way to save your creatures. But it's good outside of that too: often, you have an engine set up, and you need to protect it. This is an effective way of doing that. It is iffy though, especially in your deck, as it can stop those aforementioned engines.
Nevermaker - This is great, just loads of fun for fairly simple reasons.
Phantasmal Image - 2 mana to duplicate an ETB effect at sorcery speed at worst. That isn't great, but it's pretty good for a worst case, and at best, you're cloning an avacyn. This card is just very versatile, especially in a Roon deck.
Mirari's Wake - This is obviously very powerful.
Parallax Wave - This is ridiculous. Seriously, this card does everything. One funny interaction is removing all five counters, and then destroying it with the triggers on the stack: all five targets are permanently exiled. Anyway, this card is just fantastic, I highly recommend it.
Privileged Position - This is good for the same reason as Kira, Great Glass-Spinner, except that it's harder to find (fewer tutors target it), and it doesn't have the draw back.
Plow Under - I use this as a replacement for Time Warp. Two or Three castings of this typically remove a player from the game for a while, which wins you the game in a 1v1.
Portcullis - This is fantastic. If you play this with Roon in play, then you just start throwing creatures under it and getting their etb effects. Each turn, you can exile an opponents creature with Roon, and it doesn't come back for a while. This locks the board down, letting you solidify your position, stops token strategies, and just generally is quite good.
Scroll Rack - This just generally powerful, especially with fetch lands.
Beast Within - Against things like Hushwing Gryff or Torpor Orb I like to have a solution. Also, it's just good to have a non-creature answer to things.
Evacuation - This is great against everything but an ETB deck. It lets you re-use your abilities, and makes the opponent re-cast. It's pure value for you.
Ghostly Flicker - This is quite strong for fairly obvious reasons. It's also an alternative to Deadeye Navigator when combined with Eternal Witness: It flickers Eternal Witness and another creature, then returns to your hand.
Momentary Blink - This is just good.
Path to Exile - This is obviously just good.
I want to introduce a concept, and we're going to use Nephalia Smuggler as an example. Using his ability costs 4 mana. You can use that, obviously, to re-use an ETB effect without it costing you a cad. The question is, is 4 mana worth an ETB effect? That's based on what else you could be doing with that mana. The way to tell is, in-game, are you using his ability, casting cards from your hand, or using your mana in some other way? Furthermore, he himself costs you a card and 1 mana to set up. Do you use him often enough to merit that? This idea of mana efficiency is very important in a Roon deck because if you're playing against, say, Kaalia of the Vast, then you don't have time to be wasting mana. Roon is one of those decks that, given a ton of mana, can do all kinds of things, but having lots of mana is really the problem. The other thing to consider with this is that, rather than flickering a creature, you could just play another creature with an ETB effect.
There is one other idea, and that is vulnerability and speed. Roon tends to set up engines, but is kinda dead during that set-up time. This is fine, many decks do that, but oftentimes people neglect the cost of setting up an engine. It costs you a turn in which barely anything happens, and even then, those engines only generate moderate advantage for you every turn. They have to stay around for a while to make a big impact. Furthermore, engines are vulnerable. If an engine is destroyed early, your opponent has gained a distinct tempo advantage over you.
With all of that in mind, here are cards I would consider cutting:
Brutalizer Exarch - This is slow, I found.
Loaming Shaman - This is just irrelevant.
Mistmeadow Witch - This is good, but I just realized that if you're using this, then you don't have enough better things to be doing in your deck, and if you have better things to be doing, then you don't use this.
Nephalia Smuggler - See Mistmeadow Witch. This is just worse.
Perplexing Chimera - This is cute, but it's very easy to get around for the majority of experienced players. I, for one, have played against this several times, and it was just mildly annoying.
Restoration Angel - There are much better flicker effects at instant speed. See Momentary Blink and Ghostly Flicker.Venser, the Sojourner - Planeswalkers in EDH are a bit iffy, and this one is just too slow. I know, he's on flavor, he's so perfect, and I for one built my flicker deck shortly after scars after being inspired by this card, but just...yeah. I never had a good experience with him. I'd just recommend really looking at how he's performed.
Wargate - This is very slow. Yeah, a permanent is cool, but it's so slow.
Anyway, sweet deck, I'm liking what you've put together. Beyond the cards I mentioned, things start getting really iffy. Even now, they're iffy. I'm never sure what I should and shouldn't run, personally. There comes a point where you've got a lot of ridiculously good cards, but you don't know what would be best. I've almost just started having fun with the deck, rather than focusing on making it win-a-lot (hence the Ixidron). Anyhow, good luck with your deckbuilding!
January 17, 2015 8:49 a.m.
Traveler247 says... #11
I would like to add one other thing to the two concept paragraphs, and that is that Roon, overall, is a card advantage deck, but he fails when it comes to tempo advantage. That is Roon's weak spot, and I think your deck's main weakness is currently tempo. Tempo, btw, is just doing something relevant with all of your mana every turn. EDH games tend to go long, so card advantage is very important, but Roon looses in the early game more often than the late specifically because when you play Conjurer's Closet, tempo wise, that was almost a dead turn.
Anyway, just something to think about while moving forward. This isn't a problem necessarily either, at least on a card by card basis. Conjurer's Closet represents a trade between card advantage and tempo, but that trade can be good. I think it's just important in Roon not to completely ignore tempo.
January 17, 2015 8:58 a.m.
Traveler247 says... #12
Oh, and also, with regards to Species Gorger, Roaring Primadox, and Temur Sabertooth ,these cards represent a huge loss of tempo for a bit of card advantage.
January 17, 2015 9:03 a.m.
TheFanatic says... #13
First of all, I'd like to point out that this isn't meant to be a competitive, cutthroat Roon deck. As stated in the deck tags, it is a casual theme deck, with the theme obviously being flicker/blink.So I'm not trying to make this thing a winning machine. It's supposed to be good, but not annoyingly powerful. I play in two metas, and one of them is a social meta that just likes to play for the sake of fun. Usually Roon is my choice for that meta.
When it comes to counterspells, since this is a theme deck I'd rather not play them. I know they're fantastic, but if I ran counters it would probably be creature-based ones like Mystic Snake, which I may put into the deck over Restoration Angel.
As for your suggestions, I think you are generally relatively accurate. I would like to note that I do understand tempo, this deck just wasn't really built with it in mind other than in the case of the mana curve because, again, it's not meant to be hyper competitive. Your suggestions are all powerful cards (except maybe Nevermaker), but many of them just don't fit the theme of ETB/LTB abilities, and as a result I probably won't play them. The rest will go in my maybeboard for now.
The suggested cuts that I agree with most are Nephalia Smuggler, which I've been meaning to cut as soon as I can grab a Path to Exile, Loaming Shaman, which, while solid graveyard hate and great against mill strategies, isn't really all that impactful, and Restoration Angel, which is admittedly not at its best in EDH. Those 3 cards will all probably be cut in the near future. I like the rest enough to keep for the time being.
January 17, 2015 2:03 p.m.
Traveler247 says... #14
I hear you about the competitive, that's why I only mentioned the infinite combos in passing. They simply aren't fun. I tried to keep the bulk of my comment centered on a more fun build of Roon, though I can see that I was pushing a lot of excessively powerful cards. Also, sorry if I implied that you didn't understand tempo, I simply didn't want to talk about it and not define the word encase you didn't know. I was personally familiar with the concept, but didn't connect it to the word until quite recently.
And the theme build makes sense, I didn't get that part out of your description, but I see it in the tags. I'm just a blatant lover of control, so I don't think I could play a blue deck without counterspells. How do you feel about Ixidron, Nevermaker, Parallax Wave, Evacuation, Momentary Blink, and Ghostly Flicker for your deck? All of these either have good etbs or greatly help creatures with ETBs.
January 17, 2015 3:18 p.m.
TheFanatic says... #15
@Traveler247 I've updated the description to better convey the "theme deck" aspect of the build. As for your suggestions:
I'm wary of Ixidron mostly because it can turn over Roon, and I may have a hard time flipping him back up. He seems pretty strong, though. I just wouldn't know what to cut.
Nevermaker used to be in this build. It was nice to put a commander on top of someone's deck in response to a Worldly Tutor effect, but it was pretty rare. Since the ability is a LTB, it also makes the card pretty dependent on flicker engines to be useful (unless I want to evoke, which seems a bit rough). It's not a bad card at all, but I found it to be a bit underwhelming most of the time.
Parallax Wave is very cool, and I like it. I wouldn't know what to cut, though. It also seems kind of risky. How has it been for you?
Evacuation seems pretty bad in my specific meta - there are control decks with very few creatures, and there are creature decks where ETB abiities are prevalent. I'm not sure I can recover from an Evacuation faster than my opponents, so I don't think I really want it. Instant-speed makes the card very close to playable, though. How has it been for you in your own deck?
Momentary Blink used to be in here, but I found the blink instants/sorceries to be pretty bad in a deck with so much creature recursion and so few ways to recur instants and sorceries (just Eternal Witness). To me, Restoration Angel is just a better option because at least it's a creature and can be tutored and recurred.
Ghostly Flicker is probably better than Momentary Blink, but the same argument still stands.
January 17, 2015 3:58 p.m.
Traveler247 says... #16
As a general note, both of my metas have few control decks. Most of the decks are ultimately creature beat-down. Good creature beatdown, with a lot of variety in how it's accomplished, but ultimately still beatdown. They also don't have a huge number of ETB effects. Certainly a few, but not all that many.
Ixidron is interesting...personally, I hardly ever use my commander, so it's fairly effective. In fact, I played bant flicker for about a year before roon was released, with pink sleeves and Phelddagrif as the commander to lull opponents into a sense of false security. If you use Roon a lot, Ixidron gets worse.
Nevermaker has been good for me, maybe because it's a LTB trigger and it discourages the aforementioned creature decks from attacking me. In a heavier control meta, this is just plain awful.
Parallax Wave has been amazing. First off, it isn't very risky at all. The only risky situation is if you target one of your creatures and someone tries to destroy it in response. Then, unless you just remove another counter to re-target your creature, that creature will get permanently exiled. Of course, you just remove the counter and then they're trading a card for one counter on Parallax Wave. Here's a typical scenario: I have 3 relevant creatures, my opponent has something annoying in play (say a Consecrated Sphinx). I play Parallax Wave and exile the sphinx, it has 4 counters. Next turn it goes down to 3 counters, and I've stopped them drawing for a whole round so far. At the end of the turn before mine, I remove the three remaining counters to hit my creatures (do this one at a time to avoid the situation above), and they all ETB again on my turn. For a grand total of 4 mana, you got three ETB effects, and stalled a powerful permanent. This is just a specific scenario though. What it really does is make it impossible for your opponents to favorably board wipe, cast removal spells, or even attack with a powerful creature for several turns. Plus, it often generates quite a bit of value for 4 mana. Even if someone tries to destroy it, you just respond by exiling your creatures, so it really isn't a permanent that can be answered without you generating value except by a Krosan Grip. In your deck, I would cut Nephalia Smuggler, at least for testing purposes.
Evacuation is great because of my meta. I often am beaten down to 10 life by turn 6, so Evacuation really helps with that. Also, I get to re-use my ETBs, and my opponents don't have as many. Furthermore, there are several token decks that I play against, so...you know, this is fantastic for that. From your description, this card sounds terrible for you.
The way I thought of Momentary Blink and Ghostly Flicker are as toolboxes and better answers than counterspells to spot removal. Nature's Lore, for example, is worth 2 mana. At worst, Momentary Blink is hitting a Coiling Oracle (in which case I just wouldn't cast it) which is comparable to Think Twice (one more mana, but puts lands in play). And generally having instant speed shenanigans is good. With regard to Restoration Angel, I found that it was never anything but a body. If you play Karmic Guide for Restoration Angel, then you either flicker something else (usually a waste of a Karmic Guide trigger) or flicker the Karmic Guide, in which case it literally is just a body. Recurring it with E-Wit is the same scenario, but more mana intensive. Ultimately, I would never have rather had Restoration Angel than Momentary Blink because targeted flickering is mostly good early to mid game (after that you just want bigger plays) when mana is tight, and the blink doesn't need to be recurred to be re-usable. Admittedly, in a very drawn out game, the Restoration Angel will be better, but I feel that Momentary Blink is faster and more efficient most of the time.
Sorry for the long explanations. I really try to analyze every single card that I play in depth, and I discuss these ideas with other people (as in here) to broaden my own understanding.
January 19, 2015 12:41 p.m.
TheFanatic says... #17
@Traveler247 Interesting thoughts regarding Momentary Blink and Ghostly Flicker. I'll have to take that into consideration. As for Parallax Wave, I think I may add one. Do you have any recommended cuts?
January 20, 2015 5:36 p.m.
Indigoindigo says... #18
I've seen several Roon-list run Sphinx of Uthuun for draw, and I'm considering experimenting with Mystic Remora myself. Have you ever considered either? If yes, what are your reasoning for not running them in your list?
January 27, 2015 9:55 a.m.
TheFanatic says... #19
@Indigoindigo I ran Sphinx of Uthuun for most of the life of this list. I ended up cutting it maybe a month ago for Craterhoof Behemoth because I was having trouble closing out games when my opponents didn't just concede. I found that the Sphinx was powerful, but at 7 mana it was just a dead card in hand a lot of the time, as I had better things to do with my mana at that point. My meta is a lot more competitive than it used to be, so I had to drop cards that weren't efficient enough. Sphinx is very close, but just not quite there.
January 27, 2015 1:14 p.m.
Traveler247 says... #20
I'm just gonna go in and say that Mystic Remora is one of the best draw spells available, especially for more competitive decks. It's absolutely fantastic. It's worth noting that it's been oracle texted to work on all opponents, not just one. Personally, I tend not to run it because I play in a very creature heavy meta, and it lacks any synergy with the rest of the deck. Against Combo/Control decks though, That care is absolutely incredible.
Also, Sphinx of Uthuun got cut from my build very, very early for being way too inefficient for draw power. There are numerous better options.
January 27, 2015 11:27 p.m.
Would you consider this deck 'Casual Friendly', since I'm new to EDH and this seems REALLY fun! :D
February 17, 2015 12:06 a.m.
TheFanatic says... #22
@Scorprix Yes, I would! This deck was specifically designed with 2 separate playgroups in mind - one very casual, the other somewhat competitive. I think it's playable in both environments. It's very powerful, but still fair and fun.
February 17, 2015 12:59 a.m.
Thank you! Is this a good starting point for a new player? If I were to make price cuts, where do I start?
February 17, 2015 9:29 a.m.
TheFanatic says... #24
@Scorprix Yeah, I think a new player can start with this deck as long as they knew what cards are in it - the most difficult part about playing Roon is knowing what creature to tutor for in each situation. There's also some stack manipulation involved in playing him optimally, but I've seen you around the site for quite some time so I'd guess that you have no trouble with the rules of Magic.
As for budget cuts, I'd probably start with Survival of the Fittest. Although it is one of the deck's best cards, it's pretty high up there on the price scale and you can certainly play without it - I did for almost a year. Then I'd move to expensive lands such as Ancient Tomb, Minamo, School at Water's Edge, and fetches - they're not necessary, but they do make the deck a bit more powerful and more reliable. I'd try to avoid budget-izing the creature suite, as it's pretty tuned, but you can cut things like Gilded Drake if you absolutely need to.
One thing to keep in mind is that this deck is significantly less expensive than TappedOut says it is because of all the foils I have. If you play normal cards, it'll be quite a bit less.
February 17, 2015 10:25 a.m.
Indigoindigo says... #25
Why did you cut Conjurer's Closet from your Maybe-list? I might end up cutting it in my main myself because of the high cost, but I'm not sure.
Have you considered Gift of Immortality? I'm considering adding it back into my list for several reasons: It can be used for protection of important cards (i.e. Prophet of Kruphix), it can enchant creatures you want to use for chump-blockers, dodges the commander-tax if your enchanted Roon dies, and has great synergy with Sakura-Tribe Elder. In a 4-man pod with T2 Elder, T3 Gift you can sac the Elder twice on your turn and once on your three opponents turns, netting 5 basics before T4. It won't happen often, but I think the general flexibility and the potential for that awesome play might make it good enough.
TheFanatic says... #1
@Forkbeard Thanks for the suggestions. Those are actually all cards that were in this deck at one point, but got cut due to not being good enough. Lavinia of the Tenth and Thragtusk are almost good enough, and they may make it back into the deck at some point. Archaeomancer is just a way worse Eternal Witness in this deck since I only have 15 instants and sorceries, and Nevermaker just ended up being too underpowered.
@Indigoindigo I don't really like the manifest mechanic in this deck, so Whisperwood Elemental probably won't make the cut. Flickering morph guys for value is really on the lower end of the power scale. Other than Temur War Shaman and Whisperwood Elemental, there really aren't any cards in FRF that this deck could possibly want, and I don't think even the manifest guys are good enough.
@FridayNightShift Again, I think Roon is quite solid in multiplayer, especially with Prophet of Kruphix or Seedborn Muse on the field, both of which are easily tutorable. I have had great success with this deck in 3 and 4-player games. Not all the creatures focus on one permanent, and even if they do they can easily flickered in order to have a wider effect on the game. That's the whole reason Roon is powerful - he turns relatively ineffective creatures into value-making machines.
January 15, 2015 2:22 p.m.