Izzet Really Control Without White?

Standard TheAshenKnight

SCORE: 52 | 140 COMMENTS | 25562 VIEWS | IN 19 FOLDERS


Krayhaft says... #1

Some budget control lists run Domestication . It could be really useful here, since Boros Reckoner would be annoying for you to deal with.

March 2, 2014 9:25 p.m.

Sweetwargasm says... #2

i would -2 Divination and +2 Magma Jet . scry is almost as good as card draw, and 2 more jets would give you more burn for quick removal and end of turn direct dmg.

scry 2 lands you don't need? put them on bottom and draw something elseDraw 2 lands you don't need? well shit....

March 6, 2014 5:19 p.m.

turnyouover says... #3

Obviously, your deck needs more of a win condition. I think the reason why this Izzet deck does not perform well is because you need more cards that do well with the instant and sorcery function, such as Guttersnipe and Spellheart Chimera . Many times during FNM I can get my Spellheart Chimera to a 10+/3 which is fantastic for a 3 mana creature

March 6, 2014 6:07 p.m.

TheAshenKnight says... #4

@Krayhaft - Perhaps, but that's really the only thing I see it being helpful against. Because it gets sacrificed if I put it on anything too big, it's only really helpful against Boros Reckoner , and quite frankly, I'd rather just counter it. Granted, I might not be able to, but 4 mana is a lot against an aggro deck. So is 3 or 4 damage, but if it's 3 or 4 damage I'll take so I won't take any more later, I'm willing to just outright burn it.

@Sweetwargasm - Personally, I disagree. With Divination , you get those cards immediately. Even if they are useless in your current situation, they're still out of the way for your next draw, just as though you had scryed them. The only difference is, now you have them in hand, and if you end up needing them later, you'll have them. Plus, with the scry, you might see what you need on top, but don't have it, and end up losing before you draw it. The removal is good, but card advantage is better in most circumstances.

@turnyouover - Believe it or not, AEtherling and Stormbreath Dragon are amazing win conditions. I don't really like Guttersnipe in here because the focus of the deck isn't to burn them down quickly, unlike most other Izzet decks. Spellheart Chimera , on the other hand, does work well, and I used to run him, but I needed more card slots for other things, so I took him out. However, I did decide to add him back in in the sideboard; in some matchups (specifically Mono-Black Devotion. And yes, that deck has a lot of removal, but they're likely to board most of it out, which is when the Chimera would come in), I really need to win quickly, and the Chimera does that.

March 7, 2014 5:40 p.m.

Ketoph says... #5

So what would you do if you face a rakdos coloured deck. Nearing more the mid-range or control versions that i have seen. Slaughter games usual ends most games i play against them.

March 7, 2014 9:55 p.m.

TheAshenKnight says... #6

To be honest, there's not a lot this deck can do against Slaughter Games . I can still win, even if they name every win condition in the deck (which means they'd have to draw 4 copies of Slaughter Games (I don't think any deck is running 4 mainboard), and if they don't know the deck, they likely wouldn't know what to name), but it requires using almost every burn spell on them.

The major thing this deck has that those types of decks don't is card advantage. I should be able to finish the game before they cast Slaughter Games more than once (unless I just get really unlucky) because I can dig for my win conditions, while they can't. Slaughter Games can't get rid of an AEtherling that has already resolved.

I haven't actually encountered any decks like that in person, but I've seen lists of it here, and I'd hate to face one. It's definitely very hard to win, but not impossible.

March 7, 2014 10:15 p.m.

Man I love izzet, and I love this deck in standard but sometimes I just get hurt badly online on cockatrice with it.

I'm really just curious to how you SB against most of the archetype's with the deck, and which one's give you the most trouble?

btw the SB I run is as follows:

1x Jace, Memory Adept 1x Anger of the Gods 2x Spellheart Chimera 2x Turn / Burn 1x Ratchet Bomb 1x Elixir of Immortality 3x Negate 2x Counterflux 2x Pithing Needle

March 7, 2014 10:16 p.m.

TheAshenKnight says... #8

Yeah, sometimes the deck works well, and other times it doesn't. The deck isn't perfect, but I'm going to call those times misplays in order to help myself improve. If I claim every time I lose is due to bad luck, I'll never get better.

As for sideboarding, most of the time I don't go up against the common standard archetypes, as I play with friends who run their own stuff. Until today I hadn't written sideboard plans down so I just played it by ear when I did come up against those decks. However, I wrote them down today in the description. (which, for convenience, I'll copy below.)

Sideboarding Plans:

Mono-Black Devotion

-3 Anger of the Gods -1 Lightning Strike -1 AEtherling+2 Pithing Needle +2 Turn / Burn +1 Spellheart Chimera

Mono-Blue Devotion

+1 Anger of the Gods +1 Magma Jet +1 Spellheart Chimera -1 Ratchet Bomb -2 Turn / Burn

Azorius Control

+2 Counterflux +1 Jace, Memory Adept +1 Elixir of Immortality +2 Pithing Needle +3 Negate +1 Spellheart Chimera +1 Magma Jet +1 Ratchet Bomb -3 Anger of the Gods -4 Mizzium Mortars -1 Turn / Burn -4 Essence Scatter

Red Green Monsters

+2 Turn / Burn +1 Spellheart Chimera +1 Ratchet Bomb +1 Pithing Needle -3 Anger of the Gods -1 AEtherling -1 Magma Jet

I don't know if this is the best thing ever, but it's what I plan on doing. Depending on variations of the deck, I might change these up a bit, and as I play more, I may completely change how I do this, but these are my current plans.

As for the deck that gives me trouble... Mono-Black Devotion. And really, the only thing giving me problems is Underworld Connections . This deck can deal with a turn 2 Pack Rat , and unless we just don't draw into any counters and/or Turn / Burn at all, it can also deal with Desecration Demon . Occasionally, Whip of Erebos gives me trouble as well (and by trouble, I mean a resolved whip means an almost instant loss), but from most of the deck lists I've seen, they're only running one copy at most, and often none at all, so this is becoming less and less of an issue. However, Underworld Connections just completely overwhelms me. This deck can't keep up with the sheer number of cards they keep getting from it, and eventually they get so much stuff that we simply lose. Usually, this comes in the form of Gray Merchant of Asphodel resolving. Pithing Needle takes care of the problem, but I simply haven't playtested any with the sideboard against that deck, so I'm unsure of how much better it makes the matchup.

Azorius Control is also infuriating, as they seem to counter everything, and because of Sphinx's Revelation , always have more cards. However, due to Counterflux , we can safely get rid of their stuff, and simply wait until we can resolve a win condition.

March 7, 2014 10:34 p.m.

Ketoph says... #9

What is your opinion on act of treason and clone then?

March 7, 2014 11:36 p.m.

I don't really like either in this deck. They both require your opponent to have a creature out (unless you have one in the case of Clone ) which isn't a good thing. As for each card individually, Act of Treason isn't that great, especially as a win condition, because unless we're against control or Boros Burn, we're not going to be doing damage to them constantly. Act of Treason is good when you need to get in that last bit of damage, and they have one blocker too many. That situation will almost never occur in this deck, so it's better to run something else. Clone is better, since you get a creature, but it's almost always going to be one of theirs, and if it comes to that, you've either let them get a creature out so you can clone it, or you're losing, and the best you can hope for is a 1 for 1 trade, in which case Clone is simply a removal spell with an added chance of not working if they have a combat trick. If it's one of your creatures, you're probably winning, and therefore it's pointless.

March 8, 2014 9:53 a.m.

Krayhaft says... #11

Against the MBD matchup, you should think about running Demolish or some form of land destruction in the SB. It deals with Whip of Erebos , Mutavault , and Underworld Connections , some things you've said give you problems.

I'm curious as to why you run a 2x AEtherling /1x stormbreath split, instead of 3x AEtherling and Stormbreath Dragon sideboarded. What does Stormbreath provide for you?

Also, why are there no Mutavault s in here? I understand if it's a money issue, but would you put them in if you had them?

March 8, 2014 10:05 a.m.

Nazha says... #12

Damn I love Izzet ! I'm not alone !Here's the one I made so far, not too far from yours actually http://www.lotusnoir.info/magic/decks/izzet-24/

Just added walls for Boros Aggressives, and the rest is more or less similar. What do you think ?

I will tell you what it gives in FNM !

But your list is awesome, I am always really happy when I meet other Izzet-guy !

March 8, 2014 3 p.m.

turnyouover says... #13

I know AEtherling is really good, I have 4 in my Azorious, however the mana cost is expensive compared to Guttersnipe or Spellheart Chimera .

March 8, 2014 3:26 p.m.

Nazha says... #14

And why not Tromokratis ? a good kill combined with Whelming Wave

March 8, 2014 4:05 p.m.

True, but in this deck, that very rarely matters. And because I only have so many slots for win conditions, I'd rather the ones I do have pack a huge punch, and win games on their own. AEtherling certainly fits that criterion, as does Stormbreath Dragon . Spellheart Chimera and Guttersnipe certainly can do so, yes, but they're both much easier to get rid of as well, especially in game one, where whoever I'm going against has a ton of removal they haven't used on anything else. I get where you're coming from, but for either to be very effective, I'd really have to remake my entire deck, and turn it into more of a tempo burn deck rather than a control deck.

March 8, 2014 9:42 p.m.

@Krayhaft - Sorry, I didn't see your comment when I had posted.

I really hadn't considered Demolish . I wish it were instant speed, but otherwise, yeah, it deals with them. But I probably won't board it in. Demolish does work better against Underworld Connections than Pithing Needle , since instead of them simply enchanting a different land than the one I name, I just get rid of the land entirely. It gets rid of the way to circumvent the needle. It also allows a way to deal with Mutavault when it's not a creature (meaning I don't need an instant speed removal spell), and flat out gets rid of Whip of Erebos , though they would still get an activation from it (well, if they have 8 mana). With that said, Pithing Needle allows me to deal with the huge issue I have in every other matchup; planeswalkers. Because of its more flexible nature (and lower mana cost), I prefer to run Pithing Needle . If this were a world where the only deck that existed was MBD, though, I'd most likely put Demolish in without hesitation. That's a side of dealing with those problems I haven't really considered before, but there's a more versatile option at the moment, and I kind of need to use it.

I run the 2 AEtherling s and one Stormbreath Dragon for one reason; game one against Azorius Control. If they don't counter the dragon, it's essentially a win, as they may not be prepared to deal with it. However, I very rarely see that deck, so it probably would be more beneficial to play the 3 AEtherling s (especially since it's more effective against MBD), then simply board it out in the next game in preparation for a Pithing Needle . In every other matchup, it really doesn't provide much. Every once in a while, the fact the dragon has flying and/or can turn into a 7/7 becomes important, but I've only ever had that happen against MUD and R/G Monsters respectively. I think I'll go ahead and make the change, and if for whatever reason I find a reason to change it back, I'll do so.

As for Mutavault s, there are two reasons. The first is I'm a bit reluctant to get rid of too much of any color, since having two of red or blue by turn 3 is very important in some cases (for Anger of the Gods or Dissolve ), but I haven't playtested any with Mutavault s, so I have no idea if adding it in would really affect anything negatively (and I'm guessing it wouldn't; at least, not often enough to not change it back). The second reason is the money factor. I would almost definitely put them in once I found out the proper number I needed, but I simply don't have them, and won't have the money to get them for a while. They'd probably make this deck much, much better, though.

March 8, 2014 10:13 p.m.

blinded2 says... #17

This may seem like a obvious question but why is Izzet Charm not in place of Magma Jet for just more more utility. I would also be VERY tempted to be playing at least 4-6 scry lands in place of your basic lands. Scry is a huge advantage in control decks. I would recommend -4 Essence Scatter for +2 Nullify because it hits Underworld Connections and +2 Opportunity or +2 Steam Augury since your card draw is pretty limited without Sphinx's Revelation and Divination is just super rough on the draw. I also have a hard time thinking Pithing Needle should be in the main deck and since it seems your always bringing in Spellheart Chimera in almost every match up you should just main deck him instead.

I really like it otherwise and have been really curious to see what happens to U/W control when Ravnica drops and think Izzit or Dmir will step up and take its place in the near future. Cheers!

March 10, 2014 12:16 a.m.

Nazha says... #18

Maybe Wall of Frost like 2 main and 2 side against boros/selesnya ?It can blocks lot of thing, and deal long enough with the Reckoner for you to wait for a Turn burn !

March 10, 2014 5:43 a.m.

I apologize for taking so long to comment, but I've been testing the changes you've recommended.

I played Magma Jet in place of Izzet Charm due to the fact that Magma Jet acted as both a dig of sorts (though not quite as effective as the charm is in some cases) and a burn (that also hits players, which can come in more handy than you might think), while Izzet Charm can act only as one or the other, and the counter almost never comes into play. However, after playtesting, occasionally the counter effect did come into play, especially against a turn 3 Underworld Connections , and I can see it also being helpful against a turn 2 Domri Rade or something else of the sort (another thing this deck simply can't deal with unless they get extremely unlucky and/or we get very lucky). I think I might add it back in (it hasn't been in this deck in a long time).

As for the scry lands... I'm a bit torn. The scry is great, and almost a necessity, but at the same time, I can't have too many, or I lose too much tempo and lose because I can't cast anything when I need to. I'll do some testing to try and find the right amount of them, but I definitely agree. I was waiting for the Izzet scryland to replace the guildgates with, but I need the extra scry anyways.

I'm a bit torn on Nullify . I did a bunch of testing with it, and the ability to counter an aura almost never mattered, but those few times it did, it saved me. The thing that kept me from putting it in initially was the double blue cost, but I'm finding I almost always either have the Islands or dual lands to play them, and it simply doesn't matter, and is almost a full upgrade to Essence Scatter . I... like it much more than I thought I would.

The Opportunity s and/or Steam Augury s I'm a bit torn on. I agree I need more draw, but I'm not sure what to cut in order to fit it in. And then, I don't want too many of either of those. I like Opportunity , but it's extremely expensive, and I also like Steam Augury , but not in this deck. Having cards in the graveyard doesn't help me at all, and having my opponent pick what cards I get in a control deck is even worse. Usually it won't matter, but when I pull 4 utterly worthless cards and 1 card to save me, and my opponent gets to pick, it definitely matters. Granted, that'll almost never happen, but it definitely can. Therefore, at least to me, the only real choice there is Opportunity . I'd rather not have more than 2 in the deck, so the only thing I see to cut is Pithing Needle . However...

Pithing Needle is mainboarded for two, very big reasons.

  1. I have almost no protection from planeswalkers. A resolved Xenagos, The Reveler , Domri Rade , Garruk, Caller of Beasts or Elspeth, Sun's Champion will make me lose almost instantly unless I have a fistful of burn spells, which is highly unlikely.

  2. In MBD matchups, this deals with 3 cards that have killed me multiple times: Mutavault , Whip of Erebos (which is admittedly becoming more and more rare, but still), and the most important of all, Underworld Connections . I would list Pack Rat , but this deck can only not deal with a Pack Rat in very rare circumstances.

I was running Ratchet Bomb in its place, but I finally figured out Pithing Needle was almost always much, much better. And I've taken out the Spellheart Chimera entirely, so that's no longer an issue, but you could argue I should mainboard Stormbreath Dragon , though I've already decided it really doesn't help me whatsoever.

Though I like most of those changes you suggested, I'm still going to be testing them quite a bit against various matchups just to see how well they work after more than a few games. Overall, thank you for the suggestions a ton! I'm not trying to sound stubborn; I'm just trying to explain my thought process on this. I'll keep testing everything, and may or may not keep the changes, but I'll go ahead and change it on this deck anyways.

March 10, 2014 11:39 p.m.

Nazha says... #20

You should probably add 1 more Anger of the Gods mainboard in my opinion ! It deals with a ton of things Boros reckoner included (even if you will be dealt 3 in the process)

March 15, 2014 1:44 p.m.

A couple of cards I have been experimenting with in my izzet control build are Wall of Frost and Whelming Wave , I believe these 2 cards can be a great boost in the RG creatures match. But have no clue how many to include or what to cut in your SB for them. Just a few ideas.

Also in regards to the Divination , Inspiration topic, how about Steam Augury ?
I know it sucks letting your opponent getting the pick, but card advantage is card advantage, and it allows you to dig just as fast and if not reap more reward.

I to am trying to figure out a formula that fits my izzet build, so good luck on finding a build that works.

March 16, 2014 12:32 p.m.

also possibly Fated Conflagration in the side against big creatures.

March 16, 2014 12:36 p.m.

@Nazha - I'm not really convinced it's worth running a 4th copy of Anger of the Gods in the mainboard, mainly because I'd have to replace something to put it in, and I don't want to replace anything I have. Plus, it's mostly only really useful against aggro. It's not worthless in the other matchups, necessarily, but not as useful.

@Enlightened_Jedi - I'm not really a big fan of Whelming Wave , at least in this deck. The card itself intrigues me due to what it could be in a different deck, but in this it's a mass bounce. Granted, a mass bounce is quite good, but in the R/G monsters matchup, it doesn't actually solve the problem of the creatures. They're still there, just delayed, and in this deck, that's worse than in others, because you can't outrace them like you can in a tempo deck. I do like Wall of Frost , but after talking with someone who's way better than me, I've found I also like Boros Reckoner , but more. Why? Well, they can't attack into you profitably with it, because they either lose the creature (unless it has trample), or they take a ton of damage. Or both, if you give it first strike and burn the creature before it kills the reckoner. They're forced to not let themselves get too low so you can't just burn them to death. They also can't block profitably for the same reason. This allows you do deal better with planeswalkers (especially Xenagos, The Reveler , as it negates the Satyr making ability. In fact, if they make the Satyrs, you can just block them without the first strike activated, and let the reckoner take damage so you can ping them or Xenagos.), and simply resolved creatures in general. It also somewhat takes care of Mistcutter Hydra , as if they make it too big, they just take a ton of damage. I would like Wall of Frost more, but it doesn't do any of that. It helps keep you alive by delaying, but if their stuff is too big, it just dies. It also can't deal with planeswalkers at all.

As for the card draw... I still don't like Steam Augury in here that much. It synergizes quite well with Spellheart Chimera , but since it's not in the sideboard anymore... I don't have a huge reason to run it over the other spells. It does allow you to dig more, but it comes at the cost of not being able to pick what you get. If you hit AEtherling with it, your opponent can simply force you to take the other pile, and you're out of luck. Or if your opponent has something you can only deal with with insert card here, you get the other pile.

Also, I really just don't like Fated Conflagration that much either. The triple red is extremely hard to cast (granted, so is Boros Reckoner , but Temple of Enlightenment makes that easier to do.), and the only large creature it hits is Polukranos, World Eater . It does hit planeswalkers, true, but it only really deals with them if you have it (and are able to cast it) before it ticks up over 5 counters.

Anyways, good luck to you as well!

March 17, 2014 11:22 p.m.

Redchilli says... #24

Steam Augury is pretty great if you're playing a deck with Spellheart Chimera as one of your win conditions

March 17, 2014 11:27 p.m.

Yes, it is. The synergy between those cards is very good, and I've seen several decks using that. However, it's currently not one of my win conditions. That could change, but it's not at the moment. Don't get me wrong, I do like Steam Augury quite a bit, and I really would like to run it (especially every time I see that art, and especially if it's foil. The art is just beautiful.), but the downsides don't make up for the upsides in my mind.

March 18, 2014 10:57 a.m.

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