Izzet Really Control Without White?

Standard TheAshenKnight

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TheAshenKnight says... #1

@Nazha - I hope it works out for you! I can't guarantee anything, but the faster you can make decisions, the faster games will go. With any luck, that will help.

@DirgibleQuixote - Hmm... well, I have no idea, then. I hope you can think of it, but if you can't, that's alright.

It is bad to tap out, and typically Divination isn't played on turn 3, unless I have no counters and need to dig. The reason I replaced it with Inspiration is because the 1 mana difference is huge. If I have mana problems, I simply can't cast Inspiration like I could Divination . But the main problem I had with Inspiration was leaving mana open for a counter or Inspiration, then having to counter something and being unable to play it. That 1 mana makes a big difference sometimes. Plus, I like the art on Divination more. ;P That being said, I'm not entirely comfortable with removing it. My original reasoning on the instant-speed draw spell still stands. I really need to test it more, but I haven't been able to go to an FNM for a while, and haven't played Magic a whole lot recently. Perhaps I should split it instead... It's something I need to look at more closely. So far, Divination has felt better, but I'm not entirely sure why (other than the reasons above, which aren't the best), and my instinct has a high chance of being off.

It's not so much that I'm thinking Keranos, God of Storms will be a good finisher, but it's more the fact that he offers huge utility in a finisher. In any other shell, he'd be way too slow due to his cost. In control, I feel he makes up for it. He doesn't do anything until turn 6 at minimum, but once he comes online, he gives two things for one card. The first is repeated card draw. If you hit a land, you draw another card that has a now reduced chance of being another land, and a higher chance of something you need. It simply filters through your deck faster. Even if he himself isn't used as a win condition, that ability draws through your deck faster and allows you to get to your actual win condition much more quickly than you'd otherwise be able to. The other thing he does is offer your a free Lightning Bolt each turn. This is an incredibly useful ability for two reasons. For one, if they have something big that's resolved (say you tapped out on turn 5 to play him and they played a Desecration Demon ), the added 3 damage might be enough to kill it off. The other reason is it can hit planeswalkers, something this deck has very few answers for, often causing you to two-for-one yourself or more, assuming you have the necessary burn. Keranos allows you to either slowly tick down the planeswalker until it dies or hit it and finish it off with another burn, causing a one-for-one rather than a two-for-one. The unfortunate part about Keranos is you can't control which one of these you'll get... unless you scry. There isn't a lot of scry in this deck, but there's enough that you should be able to set up an ability you need at least once. It's not very consistent, however, but both modes are incredibly good, one allowing you to win all by itself, and the other allowing you to draw cards so you can win, or stall until that happens.

For now, I swapped Keranos, God of Storms out for Opportunity . Quite honestly, I'm not comfortable with it, but I wasn't sure what else to remove, except perhaps an AEtherling , which I'd rather avoid doing. My (rather flimsy) reasoning is because of its inflexible cost which makes it a dead card early game, but using that logic, Keranos has the same problem, except that Keranos offers more utility, which in some cases makes him better. I'd like to put Opportunity back in, but I don't know what I would replace that wouldn't reduce the effectiveness of the deck. Were it a more flexible card like Blue Sun's Zenith (which I would love for them to reprint), it'd probably be a 4 of, but as it stands, that was the only thing I'd really remotely think about cutting as of now, and even then I'm not sure of it.

Right now, this deck is in a more experimental phase, and only time and a lot of testing will tell whether the changes are any good or not.

April 23, 2014 7:54 p.m.

@TheAshenKnight

Fair enough. I hadn't thought about Keranos that much, but your reasoning makes a lot of sense. He'll probably spike in power once RTR rotates out.

Your logic on Opportunity also makes sense - repeated, incremental card draw/advantage is usually better than a bunch of cards at once unless we're talking about Sphinx's Revelation

The deck being experimental explains a lot - my current build of it is basically the old version with a minimal/bad sideboard and Steam Augury instead of Inspiration /Divination since I just don't have the latter two lying around. Goldfishing isn't really useful with a control deck, but I've goldfished with it a bunch (my LGS hasn't had events the past week) and it seems like four mana is definitely something the deck can do reliably. For that reason, I would probably prefer Inspiration over either other card.

Probably just a playstyle thing - if Divination works for you, then I'm hardly in a position to say otherwise.

April 24, 2014 12:58 p.m.

TheAshenKnight says... #3

@DirgibleQuixote - Possibly. Detention Sphere will be gone, but the meta will probably be completely different, so who knows?

Usually. The only problem is that Keranos isn't consistent card draw, but his other ability is also incredibly useful. Once he's actually in print, I'll see how he works.

I've never heard of Goldfishing before. What does it mean? Anyways, yeah, that's true, 4 mana is definitely attainable. But it doesn't always reliably happen. Or maybe I just have horrible draws. I can almost swear that if one of my friends used my deck, assuming they knew how to play it, they'd do better than I would because of their luck. x]

Theoretically I like Inspiration a lot, but in practice I've so far preferred Divination , but I have yet to take this to an FNM or anything of the like with a playset of Inspiration , so I really have no actual basis. Perhaps it is more of a personal preference than anything.

April 24, 2014 7:51 p.m.

@TheAshenKnight

Oh, goldfishing is just the practice of playing against an opponent who does nothing - that is, playing by yourself. It can be useful for aggro decks who want to curve out reliably, but for control it's basically useless. That's why the only information I feel confident repeating from it is that, in my shaky experience, four mana seems attainable.

April 24, 2014 9:50 p.m.

TheAshenKnight says... #5

@DirgibleQuixote - Ah, okay. That's a new one. Thanks! Yeah, I do that sometimes, but it's not exactly the most helpful testing to do, especially in control, like you said. Though if four mana is attainable in those tests, it probably is in regular games. But the real question is whether or not you can use that four mana for playing Inspiration , and that was one of the problems I had with it.

April 24, 2014 10:35 p.m.

Nazha says... #6

I personally really prefer Inspiration, because at turn 4 or 5, your opponent will often wonder if he plays something or not. If he doesn't, and that's something I've seen really often, boum draw at the end of his turn. So that way you are not tap during his turn, neither yours. Being full tapped at turn 3-4 for a divination is pretty dangerous imo, that's when scary stuff comes in (underworld, poluk, desecration....) Otherwise, you can always keep your inspiration for latter in the game, when you actually can draw extra card at the end of your opponent's turn !

April 25, 2014 3 a.m.

Nazha says... #7

I also had a question : "Sideboarding Plans:

Mono-Black Devotion

-3 Anger of the Gods"

Why is that ? It deals pretty well with early pack rats and specter ?

April 26, 2014 7:17 p.m.

@TheAshenKnight

I finally remembered the card I wanted to ask you about. It's AEtherize

I think (in theory, anyway) it's good because nobody plays around it and it can act as a weird hybrid of Cyclonic Rift and a board wipe. Plus, it hits Mistcutter Hydra and other things that have pro-blue or are too fat to burn.

Maybe I'm overlooking something.

April 28, 2014 3:29 p.m.

Nazha says... #9

@DirigibleQuixote I agree this can be good but since the hydra has haste, it would only give the opponent an occasion to grow it bigger, and it will still attack next turn...

April 28, 2014 3:50 p.m.

@Nazha - I'm going to answer the comments in order of oldest to newest (minus your reply to DirgibleQuixote, which'll be at the end.)

I've never seen an opponent not do anything on turn 4 or 5 because they're afraid it'll get countered, unless they're trying to bait a counter. If they don't have anything that's one thing, but that's incredibly rare. Yes, tapping stuff out is dangerous, but by turn 5, you could play Divination and still have 2 mana open for a counter. But it's never at instant speed, so I'm still torn.

Yes, but that's all Anger hits. An early Pack Rat dies immediately to any spot removal spell you have, and Nightveil Specter does the same, with the exception of Izzet Charm . It doesn't deal with the bigger threats of Mutavault and Desecration Demon , whereas the things you board in do.

@DirgibleQuixote - Ah, okay.

I'd like it more if it didn't have a few things wrong with it. The first is that it costs 4. You simply can't have enough mana for that and a counter up early game, so they get the chance to resolve something after combat, often something huge. The second is that it's only good depending on how many creatures they have out. If they have more than one creature on the field at once, you're behind, and are likely about to lose. There's so much spot removal in this deck that it often only would hit one creature. You could make the argument that it's an out for a situation where you're about to lose, they swing in, and it's a blowout, but that leads me to the third problem; it doesn't actually deal with anything. Every mass bounce spell is a huge tempo advantage card, but that only gives this deck so much. If we were constantly hitting them with tiny creatures and needed an extra turn or two to push in enough damage to win, it'd be different (such as in UR Delver in Modern), but unless you already have an AEtherling on the field and need to buy an extra turn, AEtherize only delays the same problem you already had. It might grant you enough time to draw into outs for it, but in that same time they also get other cards. It might be a lot better than I expect, but it doesn't seem like the kind of card that's suited for this deck. I'd much rather have something like Anger of the Gods to wipe the board of creatures, or have a counter to get rid of the problem before it becomes a problem. I had the same problem with Cyclonic Rift ; you're just two-for-one-ing yourself. You still have to deal with those creatures, and you used another card in order to do it when you otherwise wouldn't necessarily have to. There are definite upsides to running AEtherize , but I'm not convinced of them here.

And, like Nazha said, in the case of Mistcutter, it'd just get bigger. Or even if it doesn't, it doesn't delay it much due to it having haste.

April 28, 2014 11:25 p.m.

Nazha says... #11

I absolutely agree, moreover, you have the ratchet bomb for the hydra, just drop it, put it to 1 and wait. You always have the option of ticking it up if you need !

April 29, 2014 7:50 a.m.

@TheAshenKnight

Makes sense. It's true that this deck has crazy amounts of spot removal, which is not something I had considered.

There is another card I wanted to talk about: Font of Fortunes . We were talking about the trade-offs versus Inspiration and Divination in this deck, but the Font seems like a solid middle ground.

The way I figure it, you drop it turn 4 or so to have mana open for a counter, and you pop it whenever you have a couple spare mana lying around. Considering Inspiration is rotating out in the next rotation, the Font seems like it would be a great fit for this deck.

April 29, 2014 9:48 a.m.

Nazha says... #13

I just tried adding one Keranos main deck (I had him in an Pre-Release) against a couple of friends, and obviously, even if you don't want him in your starting hand, he's great in the late game. Either he deals 3 to a creature, making Polukranos, Desecration demon or the hydra much easier to deal with (with just a lightning strike or any blast after) or you can draw another card. He aslo allow you to deal the few damage points to the opponent to kill one turn earlier sometimes with the AEtherling.

But as for the downsides, he will never have the devotion on our decklist (unless we have both aetherling and the dragon out wich is not likely to happen) and the opponent has to know a bit of our hand...

I consider him quite cood anyway !

April 29, 2014 11:16 a.m.

@DirgibleQuixote - Yeah... It might be great, but I don't believe it would be, personally.

I hadn't really thought about Font of Fortunes much, but the more I think about it the more I like it. The initial investment is lower, so it's both easier to play and easier to sneak in alongside a counter than either Divination or Inspiration would be. I think I'll actually swap it out for now and see how it goes. The only problem I see is people removing it with something, but they'd have to spend a card (and mana) to do it, so I think that's a decent trade-off. Most decks aren't mainboarding much enchantment removal (or if it is enchantment removal, it could also hit something else, like Detention Sphere , and that's one less D-Sphere that hits a Jace or Pithing Needle ), so it's unlikely to be hit anyways.

Glad you like him too! There are downsides, like you said, but I believe him to be a good addition overall. But I'm willing to trade hand knowledge for extra cards or burn, and he's never actually 'dead' despite being unable to attack.

Unfortunately, unless I'm wrong, he can't hit Mistcutter Hydra because he's also blue in addition to red. It's just like how you can't hit Soldier of the Pantheon with Izzet Charm . But he does hit the other big guys, which can help a lot.

April 29, 2014 5:33 p.m.

TheGamer says... #15

Mainboard Pithing Needle seems kinda weird. Spellheart Chimera also seems like a fun choice in the deck. +1

April 29, 2014 5:44 p.m.

Nazha says... #16

I just wanted to think a bit more about ["Quicken"] ? Not much to do with the sorcery thing, but it digs the deck a bit, and an instant mortar might be good ?

April 30, 2014 1:58 p.m.

@TheGamer - Mainboard Pithing Needle does seem a bit strange, but there's so much stuff that it deals with that this deck has no other (efficient) answer for that I believe it to be a good choice for the mainboard. As for Spellheart Chimera , I do like it, but I just found that it died too easily. I had it in the sideboard for a while, but eventually took it out to fit another Boros Reckoner in. It's still a great card, though.

Anyways, thank you. :D

@Nazha - I like Quicken quite a bit, and it'd probably work quite well in the deck. At worst, it's a cantrip, and at best, it allows instant speed nearly anything (which is more relevant than you might think), including Divination were I to run it in lieu of Font of Fortunes . I just couldn't decide what I'd want to remove to add Quicken , a huge problem I have with just about any card. There's probably a correct way to do it, but I haven't tested it, so I don't know. It's definitely viable, though. If you like it, by all means, use it!

April 30, 2014 9:49 p.m.

Nazha says... #18

That's true that might be good for divination and mortars... But I wouldn't know what to remove ..! I think Font of Fortunes is quite good anyway, any feedback of playing it ? :)

May 1, 2014 6 a.m.

@Nazha - That's the exact same problem I have! It's difficult to decide... And I haven't tested with Font of Fortunes at all, and I can't test with it physically yet (unless I were to use proxies), so unfortunately, no. I haven't been to an FNM in a while, so I'll try to go a bit after JOU releases so I can test the changes out.

May 2, 2014 8:34 a.m.

vanmatej says... #20

Really good deck Izzet totally got me here :) Just wondering what would replace Jace in the next rotation? Because I am going to build vary similar deck to this, but I also want to play it for the next year... currently stopped playing Selesnya aggro from RTR. (+1)

May 3, 2014 3:45 a.m.

Nazha says... #21

I have the same fears ... With Aetherling and Jace going out, what are we gonna do ? ;'/We need your help, Izzet Grandmaster...A tromokratis...?And in the best cases there will be another control planeswalker in M15

May 3, 2014 7:26 a.m.

Nazha says... #22

I tried running the Fonts today and here is my review :

After some talks and tries with a buddy of mine, we came to this conclusion :

Option A : You want to run it as soon as you can, which means turn 2.That's good, because turn 3 you draw 2, and there is not many things you would have countered anyway (everything that might show up turn 2 or 3 ar easily killed by mortars or similar Master of the feast aside] )BUT it means that turn 3 you have 2 mana tapped and 1 mana left, and I personally see this as a waste of mana, since we can't do anything with just one mana in our decks...

Option B : we wait for turn 4 to draw everything on the spot. It would be like a Divination for 4, not THAT good...

Option C : we wait for latter, and here, either we use it little by little (playing it on your turn, sacrificing it at the end of your oponent's) either all at once (still like a divination less good)This would mean always leaving mana open for counters.

So in my opinion, it's much more versatile than Divination or Inspiration as we have much more options, but it doesn't rocks everything on either option..I think, for the moment I like more Inspiration.

Playtests still going :!

May 3, 2014 8:19 p.m.

@vanmatej & Nazha's Concerns - Honestly, I have no idea. There simply isn't an equivalent to Jace in Theros block, nor was there an equivalent to AEtherling (though that makes much more sense). For Jace, we have to replace him with draw spells, and hope that another planeswalker is printed that can take his place. As for AEtherling, we're actually more fortunate. While there isn't another win condition that's as efficient and consistent as him, there are other cards to use. Tromokratis is one we can look at. Others are things like Spellheart Chimera and Stormbreath Dragon . Unfortunately, from the looks of it, the deck will probably have to move away from the hard control it is right now due to the loss of AEtherling (I.E. Add more win conditions). Hopefully something will get printed that proves me false, but it's not very likely.

@Nazha's Font of Fortunes Tests - I figured it'd be something like that. The main advantage is has over either Divination or Inspiration is its reduced upfront cost. While not as mana efficient as Divination , it's much more flexible than either card. Keep in mind that while Font of Fortunes must be cast on your turn, its ability can be activated at any time, so if you leave mana open for a counter, you can activate it on their turn if nothing happens. Even if you did that on turn 4, it's a much safer play than Inspiration , as turn 5 you'd have 3 mana open even if you used the Font immediately.

Once again, I still haven't tested it, but from the looks of it, I'd like Font of Fortunes more than Inspiration . I suppose it really comes down to personal preference.

May 5, 2014 8:35 a.m.

Nazha says... #24

I agree, I think I will keep it here for now.

Also I have a hug problem, Whenever a Mogis God or an Assemble the Legion hits the board, I loose no matter what. (Unless I have an Aetherling ready and already able to attack and stuff)

So I searched the web for enchant removal in blue or red, but I couldn't find anything that deals with Mogis AND the legion... Because the God is indestructible. (we can turn burn him if it's a creature, but if the opponent is smart he will not make him a creature)

So any idea...? I thought about maybe something being able to copy it on our side or I don't know... What do you think ?

May 5, 2014 10:05 a.m.

vanmatej says... #25

Perhaps more counters against enchantments... or the new ''Journey into Nyx'' Kiora's Dismissal ??

May 6, 2014 7:33 a.m.

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