Izzet Really Control Without White?

Standard TheAshenKnight

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Nazha says... #1

Added it on side to test !

May 6, 2014 8:23 a.m.

TheAshenKnight says... #2

@Nazha - I haven't had any experience playing against Mogis, but looking at him, he seems problematic (and would be more problematic if people actually ran him frequently). However, I have played against Assemble the Legion , and it's definitely a problematic card. The most unfortunate part about it is that aside from counters, neither red nor blue have any enchantment removal. You could theoretically Turn / Burn Mogis, but if he's a creature, you're most likely about to lose anyways. But then, like you said, there's no reason for them to make him a creature unless you're about to win with AEtherling or something of the like, and they need to rush a victory. Other than that, you could bounce either card with something like Kiora's Dismissal .

The problem I have with that line of thinking is that unless you have a counter in hand, the bounce only slightly delays your death, so you had better have a good followup. And even if you do have a counter, you're two-for-one-ing yourself. Not only that, but you're running a card with very narrow effectiveness to help you do it.

Personally, I'd much rather just board in more counters and/or save them until they try to play something like Assemble or Mogis. It isn't always possible, but it's really the only thing you can do, aside from try to outrace them, which also isn't always possible.

May 6, 2014 11:46 p.m.

Nazha says... #3

That's what I'm doing so far. I didn't havce the opportunity so far to test Kiora's Dismissal, but from now on, I always keep a Dissolve in hand for this matchup. Also, I took out one nullify to put it on the side, to add one Cancel

May 7, 2014 7:57 a.m.

Random card suggestion for viable finishers post-RTR rotation:

Hammer of Purphoros . The times I've played this deck (as with any control deck), you can easily wind up with a lot of lands. That's a good thing because it lets you cast as many counters as you want, but there comes a point when you just have more than you need.

In a situation like that, Hammer helps out because it would allow you to use these excess lands and turn them into 3/3s at instant speed. These 3/3s eat Mutavault and allow you to chump larger threats or close out the game with incremental damage.

I'm also thinking of the synergy it has with Keranos, God of Storms . If you ever draw a land, you get to draw another, hopefully nonland card, and you can pitch the land to the Hammer.

Haven't playtested it at all, but in a post-AEtherling world, it might be workable alongside Keranos and Tromokratis .

May 7, 2014 4:46 p.m.

TheAshenKnight says... #5

@Nazha - Out of curiosity, what is that matchup? BRW Control? Also, I'm not entirely certain having to run Cancel is really necessary (especially after you sideboard in Counterflux ) if you're worried about Mogis. The gods can be hit with Nullify , even if they aren't creatures when they enter the battlefield, because on the stack they're considered creature spells. Against Assemble the Legion , on the other hand, you don't have that luxury because it's not an aura. That said, due to its cost, I'm not entirely comfortable with replacing a Nullify with a Cancel , but if you think you need it, it might be necessary. I'd consider Counterflux in its place, though. It's mana cost is slightly more prohibitive, but it has an added benefit that makes it stronger versus control.

@DirigibleQuixote - I had never considered that before, but I like it. The problem I see with it is running out of land, but you shouldn't need that many to win, since they can only have so many removal spells, and you're going to have card advantage (unless you're against control...). Testing would be necessary, but I like that idea quite a bit. Also, if you're running other win conditions alongside it, such as Spellheart Chimera , it gives them all haste, which could be extremely helpful.

Nice idea! Once RTR comes close to rotating, I'll start testing with it.

May 7, 2014 9:58 p.m.

Nazha says... #6

That was a WUR control !

May 8, 2014 6:49 a.m.

vanmatej says... #7

I love the Hammer idea! With Keranos you could be able to deal 6 damage in one turn unless you have more creatures.

May 8, 2014 1:18 p.m.

TheAshenKnight says... #8

@Nazha - Ah, okay. That'd make Counterflux even better, then.

@vanmatej - I hadn't thought of it that way, but wow. Not quite as good as AEtherling , but it still works.

May 8, 2014 5:37 p.m.

Adroniac says... #9

Hate the deck name, love the deck

May 13, 2014 7:25 p.m.

@Adroniac - Yeah, the name isn't that great, but the only other thing I can think of is, "Izzet Control", which isn't exciting in any way (I'm bad at names). x] Thanks though. :D

May 14, 2014 10:40 p.m.

Playing Font of Fortunes is kind of unacceptable when you have access to far better things such as Divination , or could even go up on the number of Izzet Charm . Bad card is bad, don't play it.

You are very light on win conditions and have no big draw power. If you're gonna forego white and not include Sphinx's Revelation then you need some more game-ending spells, 2 in the form of AEtherling and 1 in the very, very slow form of Keranos, God of Storms is going to leave you gasping for a playable spell. You either need to retool the whole deck or you need more threats. Putting a few Stormbreath Dragon in the main is a good threat to add, and one or two Jace, Memory Adept can add a clock as well.

Lightning Strike doesn't feel like a great fit here. You either play control, or you play burn. There is not enough playable counterburn support in standard for burn-control to be viable. You're already more on the control side so I would recommend sticking to that. Strike is weak versus most of the important creatures in the metagame, and you don't have any other burn spells to make it a threat, so I would drop it. I would use these slots for threats, perhaps the aforementioned.

Nullify is a god awful card mainboard. It's even bad sideboard tech. I would drop it for a couple of Cyclonic Rift and move the Counterflux to the mainboard.

All in all, this deck isn't going to win any GP's anytime soon, but with a little refinement and focus, this could be a badass FNM deck, and will bring many sighs of distress around kitchen tables.

May 20, 2014 12:07 a.m.

Nazha says... #12

Well maybe adding a win condition is good, but Cyclonic Rift just doesn't make it for me... Ok, you remove the thing from the table, he's here the next turn. Unless you counter it (which is 2 for 1, really not great) it just delays the problem, and you lots a cardOnly usefull against tokens, which are not seen everyday

May 21, 2014 5:17 a.m.

@reverndvile777 - Personally, I disagree. This deck needs the draw, and the main drawback of Divination is its higher upfront cost. You pay the 2 mana early on, then crack it whenever you left mana open for a counter, rather than tapping out to pay for the draw. Divination doesn't leave you with that option. It's tap out turn 3 or wait until turn 5 to leave mana open for a counter or a burn. It doesn't get you the draw you need when you need it without sacrificing the ability to counter. Plus, Font of Fortunes gives you an upper hand (with some exceptions) in a control mirror, as it comes out earlier than Divination . Go ahead and Detention Sphere it, that's one that won't be used on Jace or Keranos. Or just crack it in response.

... Yeah, I see what you mean. I'm not putting in white, so that's out of the question. I don't like Jace, Memory Adept that much, but he'd definitely work. If anything, I'd put in Stormbreath Dragon . The question then comes of what to cut (see below).

Lightning Strike is creature (or in some cases planeswalker) removal in this deck; it's not intended to be used for burn unless you can kill them with it. This isn't a counterburn deck; it's a control deck. The problem is that I'm only running so many removal spells, and I need this card for both instant speed and hitting for more than Izzet Charm . I agree I could cut the number of copies down a bit, as it is pretty weak, but removing it entirely, at the moment, I don't believe is the best idea (but knowing me, I'm probably wrong. I need to test this). A copy or two could definitely be cut for something that applies pressure, likely Stormbreath Dragon .

The double blue is painful, but I need the 2 mana counter. Bigger creatures are a huge problem, and since I don't have access to Detention Sphere , cutting these isn't an option, especially when it means replacing them with something more expensive. The reason I'm running this over something like Essence Scatter or Counterflux is because it has a lower cost than Counterflux and it hits Underworld Connections , whereas Essence Scatter does not, helping significantly against MBD, which used to be a very problematic matchup. I could move Counterflux to the mainboard, but this isn't the card to cut to do it, as it's too expensive for early game utility (which is only really a problem against R/G or Jund Monsters, but that's by far this deck's worst matchup... though that might've changed with the last set; I haven't played enough recently to know). And I'm not adding Cyclonic Rift . This deck doesn't apply enough pressure to make bounces efficient, even if I were to mainboard more win conditions. Azorius Charm is different, as it both stalls their creature and their draw, but this only does one. It has added utility against other permanents, but what happens is I end up 2 for 1 myself whenever I cast it. I used to run it, and I had this exact problem. (Basically what Nazha said.)

Yeah, in its current state, it can't win a GP. Someone better than me would have to tweak (or completely rework) it, and likely play it themselves. It's already kitchen table distress worthy (at least, my kitchen table), but it's not quite an FNM terror yet. I'm working on it.

Sorry if I appear a bit stubborn (... even though I am x] ), but I'm explaining my reasoning on the cards you mentioned. Regardless of however I sound, thank you!

May 22, 2014 12:25 a.m.

PrestigePunk says... #14

Suggestion: Cut 2 Turn / Burn 1 AEtherling for 3 Stormbreath Dragon . DO IT. Maybe even four , he's the best card in red.

May 24, 2014 9:01 a.m.

Its great to find another Izzet build here to learn from, I knew there was potential it. I'm prototyping a Burn/Control build right now and faced the similar issue of card draw later on in the game All ur beast r belong to us. Looking at your build, Font of Fortunes is an interesting idea - it acts as card draw AND bait for counters/denials - I might have to make some room for it. However, would you consider something like Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius as a card draw solution later in the game? I had to put him aside due to the way legendary rule messes with my meta.

I noticed you mentioned trouble dealing with R/G Monsters. While my build is not as thoroughly tested as yours yet, it was able to stand up against few midrange-ish decks it fought due to the creature duplication/stealing effect. One game had an opponent ultimating Kiora, the Crashing Wave and I was duplicating Kraken after Kraken. Act of Treason or Harness by Force in the sideboard?

July 27, 2014 12:40 a.m.

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