Fishmonger2000 says... #2
@Hidden_Blade
Dispel was MVP against bant company (nothing like dispelling a collected company!) I prefer Negate to Invasive Surgery. Even though it costs one more, which is a big difference in this deck, I find its versatility to make up for it. I use it when I see a lot of planeswalkers coming out.
Uncaged Fury is the finisher card we might need. It would be "late game'' and lets do the math on a couple of probable scenarios. You have 4 mana on the field as well as a Stormchaser Mage Your opponent is at 14 life and you need to kill him this turn to win. In hand you have a Titan's Strength + Uncaged Fury . Plop both of those down on the stormchaser mage after declare attacks and boom you swing for 14. Its a bit more inconsistent, but if you can land even one pump spell on top of a uncaged fury, the damage runs away fast.
Something not unlikely to happen: Slip Through Space + Titan's Strength + Uncaged Fury on top of an Elusive Spellfist that has Infectious Bloodlust ... 18 unblockable.
Another likely thing to happen: two mana and a dead uncaged fury in hand. I may drop a cantrip and go up one mana if I am side-boarding this in.
April 20, 2016 11:42 a.m.
Fishmonger2000 says... #3
whoops , did my math wrong. The last situation would swing for 20 unblockable!
April 20, 2016 11:45 a.m.
Hidden_Blade says... #4
@Fishmonger2000 - ok, based on your recommendations I'll run Negate and Dispel. It's nice to have another person's thought process going into this, as I rarely play blue and have little experience with counter-spell choice.
I think that Infectious Bloodlust does actually make Uncaged Fury more viable, as even on 3 mana with an enchanted Stormchaser Mage, that's a swing for 10 damage, which isn't too shabby.
It's true that getting reliably to 4 mana in this deck is hit-and-miss, but I think I'll go to FNM at my LGS and test the deck again before I go changing the deck too much more, as I don't want to run away with the changes too quickly as it will be hard to tell just what was influencing the outcomes.
I'm also play testing against a few friends tomorrow, one of which is running a control mill deck, the other who has a very strong white weenie deck, so maybe I'll get some insights into the changes thus far.
April 20, 2016 12:31 p.m.
Gamernatic says... #5
Provided you can play the money, the Fumarole is a direct upgrade to the lake. Also, token suggestion of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip
April 20, 2016 12:47 p.m.
Hidden_Blade says... #6
Lol, ok I'll upgrade the Lakes to Wandering Fumaroles if everyone is going to keep bringing them up, even though this deck should never see 5 land in one game and as such it really doesn't matter if they are man-lands or not.
As for Jace, as I've mentioned above, 1 Jace roughly equals the entire cost of this deck. This deck isn't a true pauper-level budget deck but it is cheap by my standards, so doubling or tripling the cost of this deck isn't something I'll be doing, ever. Not only that but to be honest by casting a Jace what you will be doing more often than not is delaying lethal by a turn, which is not what this deck wants.
April 20, 2016 12:58 p.m.
All_Regent says... #7
Some more thoughts on the deck after testing it online a bit:
This deck pretty much loses to Reality Smasher + Any removal. It can usually outrun a smasher by itself but if our threat gets removed than there is nothing to stop it. Roast in the sideboard could help but the sideboard is pretty tight as it is.
I think you should leave in 4 clutch of currents sideboard. It's the only answer this deck has to Westvale Abbey Flip, which if that gets on the field it is pretty much a guaranteed loss. Something I would take out would probably be 2 Skin Invasions since, while they are nice against board wipes, a lot of the removal right now is exile based.
Also I feel like the deck could really use at least 1 more land. Often I get an opening hand with 1 land where I think "well, if I get to 2 I win" but then the 2nd land doesn't come until turn 4 and at that point I'm way too far behind. I imagine one of the instants could be removed, like Expedite
April 20, 2016 1:57 p.m.
Fishmonger2000 says... #8
@HiddenBlade Post your testing results, I love this deck and want to tune it to the highest performance it achieve.
April 20, 2016 3:38 p.m.
Hidden_Blade says... #9
@All_Regent - Thanks for the detailed and reasoned input, it's comments like this that actually help make a deck better, rather than just "You should put X card in and take Y card out".
In general, this deck is going to struggle against any deck that uses a medium to high amount of creature removal. With the low creature count, that's just something I will have to try to make the sideboard capable of fixing as well as it can.
I can see where the reality smasher could be an issue, as it puts the opponent's win on a very fast clock. One option would be to make a two-for-one trade by blocking, using a Titan's Strength to take it out. Obviously this is impossible if the opponent is also removing all my creatures.
So yes, maybe Roast needs to be included regardless of how tight the SB is, but I may wait a few days to see more of my meta before deciding as ultimately a SB is highly meta dependant. If I find myself being beaten by fast ground threats then I'll have to make changes.
I can also see the argument for Clutch of Currents, so maybe putting those up to 4 will be more useful than Skin Invasion.
As for the land situation, last week at FNM I actually included two lands in my sideboard for if I'd misjudged and not taken enough. Whether or not it was good fortune, I did not have to mulligan more than once for any one hand.
I'd like to point out that no matter how tempting a one-land hand may look, this deck must never, ever take it. It cannot function in any way on one mana, and it's dual colour means that if you were denied one colour, you've almost certainly lost. A mulligan down to six cards does not really hamper the deck too badly, particularly with the scry, so you should never be scared to. This deck must always have at least one creature and two lands (with two colours) in opening hand, nothing else matters.
That said, I'll be keeping a close eye on the land situation, and I'll keep your suggestions in mind if I find that my experience changes.
April 20, 2016 5:36 p.m.
Avaricious Dragon is an extremely nice card to curve into fourth turn. By that time you have most likely run out most of your hand, and it allows you to draw more while having a nice flying creature body that can interact with some famous white angels you may know. Along the same lines is Day's Undoing, which also refills your hand and lets you start casting more of those instants/sorceries. The dragon could either replace or side in for the Abbot/ 1 or two spellfists. Its really only a 1 or two of anyway. The days undoing is similar in that you only need 1-3 to really help. Could replace/sideboard for some of your slipping through space if needed.
April 20, 2016 9:42 p.m.
Here's the blue red prowess deck I've been working on Blue Red Prowess. I try to have an extremely low curve to help my Abbot of Keral Keep become better. Infectious Bloodlust is a good card in this deck, that was a good find. I was wondering if anyone thought a card that used the graveyard could be good. This deck used to be very good at running Treasure Cruise because of how fast it fills up the graveyard. Any ideas for a card that uses the graveyard? Geistblast doesn't seem strong enough, but there's got to be something that could fit in this role.
April 21, 2016 12:48 a.m.
Deathystorm says... #13
I loved this deck so much i went and bought the few cards i needed to complete it.. Will let you know how I go at FNM tomorrow!
April 21, 2016 1:12 a.m.
Only things in standard that will let you use the grave would be Goblin Dark-Dwellers, Flip Jace (too expensive to suggest), and new enchantment Harness the Storm.
Out of these options the goblin is very strong because of his ability to bring back burn spells to go to face and even reuse Expedite on self to become a 4/4 haste, menace creature.
The enchantment is an interesting option because you can recast cards from your grave when you cast the given card giving you multiple spell triggers; downside is you have to pay the additional mana and can be tough to chain cast any spell over 2 mana easily.
Hope these are the cards you were looking for since Geistblast didn't seem to tickle your fancy.
April 21, 2016 3:15 a.m.
Hidden_Blade says... #15
@primtg17 -Avaricious Dragon is an awesome card, I freaking love that art and flavour text, but four mana can be hard for this deck to reach. Also, it and Day's Undoing are probably not nessasary for the draw they provide, as this deck is actually quite good at keeping a moderately full hand.
One card that was in the earlier versions of the deck was Zada, Hedron Grinder, as you could cast mass buffs for one mana, and expedite and slip through space were capable of filling your hand. If there was a four drop I'd consider for the deck, it would be Zada, I think, as he brings crazy draw and extra finishing power. I did take him out in the end for cheaper draw engines, but he is good card that perhaps looking back could replace Uncaged Fury for our finisher/ late game gas card.
@hamiam - Thanks!
@MTG18 - deck looks good, although I'd consider evening out your land colours. When your 8 best two-drops need Blue mana to be cast, I feel that having even colour distribution is necessary. I also feel that given the low land count, Magmatic Insight is a bit unreliable and may end up as a dead card too often.
@Deathystorm - Thanks! Good luck at FNM!
@razelfark - Goblin Dark-Dwellers is one mana too expensive to fit in a deck like this, I think.
Harness the Storm is another card I tested extensively, and was actually one of the cards that first made me want to build this deck! Ultimately though, mainly for the reasons you specified, it was not the best fit for the deck. And yeah Geistblast just ends up way too expensive. I wish they'd costed the card better, because 6 mana for 2 damage and a re-cast cantrip just isn't worth it.
April 21, 2016 4:20 a.m.
I was just providing a list of cards in your color more because MTG18 made comments about how to recur spells. Sorry I forgot to use the "@" tag.
Think it would still be fun to run Harness the Storm in a deck even if its not efficient because of how silly the card seems. If I ever come up with a way to make it more usable I will post it.
April 21, 2016 6:25 a.m.
Hidden_Blade says... #17
@razelfark - oh no, I knew that, I was just giving my perspective on those cards with this deck in mind, and why I hadn't included them. Man I do wish Treasure Cruise was still in standard though.
April 21, 2016 7:18 a.m.
Deathystorm says... #18
@Hidden_Blade As I couldnt get all the cards you have but here's what I'll be playing is as follows
Creature (13)2x Abbot of Keral Keep3x Elusive Spellfist2x Jori En, Ruin Diver4x Stormchaser Mage2x Thing in the Ice FlipSorcery (11)2x Exquisite Firecraft3x Slip Through Space2x Roast4x Clutch of CurrentsEnchantment (7)2x Fevered Visions2x Harness the Storm3x Infectious BloodlustInstant (9)3x Expedite2x Rush of Adrenaline4x Titan's StrengthLand (20)6x Island6x Mountain3x Highland Lake1x Shivan Reef4x Wandering Fumarole
Now I tried to stick with the same sort of concept as you by sticking with low cost mana spells as much as possible but having to substitute more instant spells for sorcery's.. I also added in the Harness the Storm which has been very helpful in a couple of games and also allowing me to use the instants twice if not three times in lucky- Its pretty very helpful for me but i understand why you havnt put it in your deck.. I did get a bit manascrewed in an earlier game but I had just put it all together so i think i just needed to shuffle it a little more.. by turn 7 and 21 Damage unblockable i was happy! If you or anyone else has any idea's for more instants or another creature to replace Elusive Spellfist that would be great!
April 21, 2016 9:26 a.m.
Hidden_Blade says... #19
@Deathystorm - the deck looks good. The changes between yours and mine seem reasonable and I'd love it if you could comment here with your findings after playing with it!
April 21, 2016 2:26 p.m.
Hidden_Blade says... #20
If anyone is interested, the playtest results from yesterday are posted on the latest update.
April 22, 2016 4:27 a.m.
maybe try Day's Undoing as you will eventually always run out of cards
April 22, 2016 4:33 a.m.
Deathystorm says... #22
Play test resultsGreen/White Humans Midgame Deck 2/1 First Game I didnt do too well because I ended up getting screwed but the next two games I ended up winning because of two Thing in the Ice and clearing the field with Jori En, Ruin Diver, but those two times the person I was VS'ing got mana screwed.White/Black/Red Mill Aggro 1/2All games were soo close only needed a turn to win even down a 1 life for me to win. Person would use Nahiri to summon a Ulamog to make me discard 20 cards at times, was mostly using Stormchasing Mage this time around but I didnt get as many instants to ramp him up as much i would have liked but was a very close game ever time both with either 3-2 life left was good fun to verse.White/Blue Control 0/2This was a terrible deck to vs as i kept getting my Stormchaser Mage and Elusive Spellfist bounced almost every times i summoned them, just couldnt get through his bounce back cards (Damn i hate Reflector Mage). He also was playing Elusive Spellfist so It made it pretty hard to counter any of his attacks.White/Blue Ramp/Humans 1/2This was another deck that I had a lot of trouble with as he was abble to summon 2 Gideon Emblems for +1/+1 for his creatures and then also had Elusive Spellfists and a few other Human cards that would also buff other Humans ended up getting beat by 24 damage over 3 creatures with and all with unblockable
4 Win's! Unfortunately i dont know if it was just the night or the people i was playing that had very experienced decks. I'm only assuming that as they all had GPrix/Champion playmatts.. It performed as well as i think i could have with the hands i got.. I had either a lot of mana or not enough mana at times getting stuck with either 10 lands or 3. Had to mullagen to almost 5-6 cards sometimes just to get enough starting land in my hand. Never drew Harness the Storm so i never got to ramp my guys up as much as i would have liked and i think i need more removal spells but also more ramp.. Thing in Ice was probably my turn winner over all but very hard to relyably flip but an amazing gamechanger when it did. Overall I think this deck needs a little more something, I'm just not sure what :/
April 22, 2016 11:14 a.m.
Hidden_Blade says... #23
@DeathyStorm - Thanks for the results Deathy!
I agree that Thing in the Ice Flip very good, but I don't think we need more after my games, because as you said, it can sometimes be hard to flip or just get removed. It does win a lot of games, but I doubt I'd be happy with a hand full of them.
I'm on the fence about Harness the Storm, but if you manage to find out how it plays next time, I'd like to know your thoughts.
It sucks that you had some land issues, although by the sound of it you had similar problems to me where you ended up land-flooded - shouldn't happen often with our land count, but that's the nature of the game I'm afraid.
Im about to post my FNM update soon, and I'll reset the discussion as this has gotten pretty long!
April 22, 2016 6:24 p.m.
Hidden_Blade says... #24
A few very tentative changes. I will hopefully test over the weekend:
+2 Uncaged Fury (Added Zada to SB)
Swapped around Fevered Visions and Exquisite Firecraft
-2 Skin Invasion Flip from SB
+2 Radiant Flames to SB
April 22, 2016 7:52 p.m.
A nifty card also to play might be Oath of Jace which you could use to help refill your hand with useful cards if it is filled with nothing useable. It's especially nice against control decks that might either counter your stuff or destroy your hand. Maybe it can replace one each of clutch of currents and radiant flames in SB to replace oath of chandra against control.
Hidden_Blade says... #1
@SwiggySwoo - I did actually include a couple Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh Flip in my first few versions on the deck. She does work in the deck, but there were times when I struggled to flip her, so she was replaced by Jori En, who brings some really reliable draw which I felt was ultimately more useful.
A few versions of the deck later, and I could actually see her working better now, so it might be worth a playtest, maybe replacing our other utility card, Fevered Visions. It would lessen the draw power, but probably end up doing more damage.
The only real issue is her double red mana cost, which could prove limiting.
April 20, 2016 11:26 a.m. Edited.