That would be awesome Bad_Dog. Tag me in the deck comments, or link it over so I can follow too.

Nice deck, looks cool.

Have you tested it in a CEDH meta? How did it perform?

Hi Knixx,

It fairs very well. It depends on your goal, if you just looking to win, consistently definitely go with a Thrasios, Triton Hero or a Kess, Dissident Mage. For myself, I want to win, but want to enjoy doing it. It doesn't have the card advantage of or enough tutor/counter interactions to be as consistent as several of the Competitive+ commanders, but feel Kaalia of the Vast falls in that.

Generally cEDH theory with Kaalia of the Vast is to abandon the damage line, you can see some recommended changes under Maybeboard Sushi. I haven't found that it significantly improves my win ratio, but it may be the way to go.

I have Turn 1-Turn 3 win potentials, and have a Turn 4.x average win. I do find, I'm almost exclusively combo wins now, <20% of wins involve combat damage.

So in short, yes this deck and Kaalia of the Vast can be competitive, not on a level consistent with some others. Abandoning combat damage is key to having success, you'll see I've pretty much abandoned but can still be pushed a little further. Funnest commander, maybe Animar, Soul of Elements, so for me, competitive and entertaining.

hey Spirits,

I'm sure you've answered/considered this already, but would Open the Armory be worth it; maybe over Steelshaper's Gift? I know it's cmc more but it get's our Dance of the Dead, Animate Dead, or Lightning Greaves and Steelshaper's Gift only gets Lightning Greaves. Just a thought... Thanks for what you do for the Kaalia community!

LK

Also, another thought I had, which you've probably already considered, was Victimize? I figure at the very least, can't you get Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Restoration Angel. Both creatures enter, Restoration Angel ETB on the stack, target Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and start the loop?

Hey Spirits,

I was also wondering what your thoughts were on Shallow Grave? Or do you think it's too redundant?

Don't know if this was mentioned in the comments but I noticed you were missing a combo from your infinite combo section in the primer.

Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Worldgorger Dragon. Create a token in response to the Worldgorger trigger and resolve the token trigger first to exile all of your permanents, then the OG trigger resolves and brings them all back. Worldgorger is back in play with trigger on stack and you can do it again. The line ends with all of your permanents in exile but in the mean time you can generate infinite mana or do any number of things with the infinite flickers. Not the best combo in the world but thought I'd let you know it was in there.

Hi LordKunai,

Thanks for the comments. Open the Armory is great, has a lot more modular, I'll re-evaluate, it's almost a mini-tutor. The Steelshaper's Gift is good because it's T1 going toward a Razaketh, the Foulblooded line. I've been thinking about abandoning the damage line completely, but Lightning Greaves would still stay. CMC2 is the wrong turn in a 3-4 turn game, but might improve T5.

Victimize too slow for sure, would need to have way more Surveil or graveyard filing. It can replace Reanimate in to start the Kiki-Resto line, but don't need that much recursion, when it could be a dead draw later. Also, needs a resolved creature in as well as the creatures in the graveyard. Too conditional to be consistent T3. And because they enter tapped, other than Razaketh, the Foulblooded, it's not great outside of the Kiki-Resto. Open the Armory probably better in that spot to pull the Animate Dead.

Shallow Grave is good too. Similar to Corpse Dance have to stack properly, but it's a good card at CMC2. I have too much recursion / unburial as it is, might cut 1 inevitably, but it's quite good. In more of a reanimator based model, would be even better. Exactly what you're thinking, too much redundancy on the unburial, and not an unburial-centric build, definitely combo deck.

Thanks, Ruffigan, I'll update the list, that would be one crazy cEDH that's gone off the rails with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Worldgorger Dragon lines in, but a good to know, similarly to the Instant unburials like Necromancy can save a game state in response to something crazy.

Thanks for all the great feedback.

This is the best primer I've seen for Kaalia, hands down. Your detailed explanations regarding card choices are very nice to see. Have you considered Giver of Runes as Mom 2? It can't give itself protection, but its main purpose is to protect Kaalia instead anyways.

Hi DankMagicianD,

Thanks for the comments. Glad you found it informative, which is the goal!

The reason Giver of Runes is excluded is exactly what you noted, cannot give itself protection, so it takes away the ability to block, and then for protection. It also means itself can be removed fairly easily.

In addition, once I have a Mother of Runes in play to protect Kaalia of the Vast or make her unblockable (by a single color), I don't want a duplication of that effect. Imagine a starting hand with 2x Mother of Runes, wouldn't be good.

Mother of Runes is certainly an optional choice as well, a well timed Silence into a haste Kaalia of the Vast can be more effective, and a Silence has better modularity. I like Mother of Runes because it breaks up the CMC for Silence which allows to go 1 turn earlier in some cases. Again it's subjective.

Easily could be subbed out for other synergy cards too, like a Children of Korlis to enable Razaketh, the Foulblooded or Doom Whisperer opening into Infinite win-con lines, or Thassa's Oracle interaction like Abeyance or Hushbringer. Even with Flash (Protean Hulk) banned, Thassa's Oracle + Tainted Pact or Demonic Consultation still require interaction. Evaluate if your losing because Kaalia of the Vast gets target removed, or if your losing because others are winning first, will help you decide if Mother of Runes and/or Giver of Runes is the right choice, or if you need a stronger interaction package like Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast which I would highly recommend in a dominated format.

If you prefer Giver of Runes because you need the protection from Colorless, she can replace Mother of Runes, if you don't need that, then Mother of Runes has better modularity and protection. If your getting hit with target removal, double up and run both (or a Silence).

hey Spirits! long time no talk to haha. I was wondering what your thoughts were on the new dragon Leyline Tyrant. I know its not SUPER fast or anything but, the card is pretty legit. It might not make the cut in this deck because this deck is already pretty efficient at what it does, but i still wanted to hear your thoughts on it. Hope you're staying safe and healthy!

Lordkunai :)

Hey LordKunai,

Leyline Tyrant is quite good, I've thought about him. I don't think he quite makes the cut, as it's a little slow (needing to stockpile unused mana), and if his ability was leaves the battlefield (exiled) instead of dies, it would be a little more secure of an investment.

That being said, an early Entomb + Reanimate could get you to a win faster stacking 3 or 4 mana for a turn. Most of my combo are not red though as well.

He's cool to see, nice useful dragon, I could see an infinite mana deck abusing him, but not quite the right fit for this build.

Spirits,

Another suggestion you may have already considered or had suggested to you... Thoughts on Imperial Recruiter?

Also, have you given anymore thought to running Open the Armory over Steelshaper's Gift?

Hi LordKunai,

Ok i've been thinking, Open the Armory (fetches: Animate Dead or Dance of the Dead) is better than Steelshaper's Gift (only Lightning Greaves), the issue is CMC2, for that I get Demonic Tutor or Tainted Pact or Diabolic Intent.

Steelshaper's Gift really only makes the cut because it is T1, and it can enable a T1 Lightning Greaves with Mana Crypt. It's likely to get cut.

I dunno if you follow the Kaalia discord, but Kaalia of the Vast finished in the top-4 of 118 player cEDH tourney, Okoberfest, there's a decklist in the article (moxfield). I'm going to run a side-by-side differential, but notably it runs Ad Nauseam and Dualcaster Mage combos instead of like Dockside Extortionist combos (which I feel Corpse Dance isn't good until mid-range gameplay).

Some Commander Legends updates:

weezel, Maralen of the Mornsong going back in supported by Opposition Agent, still not going as far as Stranglehold but Aven Mindcensor also not bad with it.

uninvited, Spire of Industry finally in, added the Vault of Whispers and Ancient Den as well as the Mox Opal to support. Thrill of Possibility has been good too at getting Worldgorger Dragon or Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker out of hand.

LordKunai, Leyline Tyrant just runs too slow, not going to commit him to the deck. Lion's Eye Diamond / Lurrus of the Dream-Den lines would be nice if you have a LED. Imperial Recruiter let's you really go for the Leonin Relic-Warder combo piece. If you want to go that route, I would remove the Worldgorger Dragon combo completely, and also include Recruiter of the Guard. I replaced Steelshaper's Gift with Open the Armory, wasn't a significant change. With it in though, I was thinking take Corpse Dance out since I have the extra Animate Dead tutor, which abandons the Dockside Extortionist / Corpse Dance line, which never happens anyway. WGD has T1 potentials (like my Buried Alive/Reanimate Line) but Bogardan Hellkite is SOOO bad, I was even thinking to try Omen of the Forge instead.

Need this card: Bogardan Drake, BR, Dragon, Flash, Flying, Haste 1/1. When Bogardan Drake enters the battlefield deal 1 damage to any target. Dash R or something lol to replace Bogardan Hellkite, there just isn't anything Flash/Instant in the game of magic.

I keep waffling on Plunge into Darkness, I think it helps more than hurts. I'm about 90% sure i'm going to take Angel of Despair or Corpse Dance to permanently add the tutor in.

From PlayEDH discord, have to modify slightly.

Rambler — 03/28/2021 Spirits It looks like you are going for a high power build of Kaalia. In which case you'll want to cut the high CMC demons/angels that don't actually help you like bogadan hellkite and ange lf despair for the fast mana rocks you are missing and ad nauseum. That should put you close enough to the competitive list to play in high. We are 100% proxy friendly so feel free to just proxy whatever you are missing. Welcome to the server

Hi,

I absolutely love your list! I have one question tho, do you think this deck can perform well in 1v1 (provided that I replace the banned cards)? If not, what would you change?

Hi Rakdorzhov,

I think it would perform well. I've played it as is 1v1 many times (without changed ban list).

I don't utilize any of the lands that require multi-player. Dockside Extortionist may be much less useful. I would likely remove that one. I might add a bit more removal, mostly I rely on others for removal interaction, if it's just me, I'd likely add some more ( Path to Exile or Fire Covenant or Withering Boon perhaps).

Turbo Ad Nauseam is popular again, I haven't gone that way though, Children of Korlis + Ad Nauseam might be enough if you wanted to go that way, already have Angel's Grace mainboard. Might want another Worldgorger Dragon outlet as well, Cut / Ribbons perhaps?

Ad Nauseam has been too slow, switching back to Worldgorger Dragon. Likely will end up cutting Worldgorger Dragon for more interaction, but we'll see.

Adding the Ancient Copper Dragon in.

I need a real alternative to Bogardan Hellkite he is so bad, but can't find an alternative to him.

hey Spirits! long time no see haha. So i was wondering what are the requirements for alternatives to Bogardan Hellkite? Would Red Dragon, Demanding Dragon, Scourge of Valkas, Terror of the Peaks or Tyrant of Kher Ridges work?

Hey LordKunai,

Unfortunately none of those dragons work, because they don't have "Flash".

When WGD combo starts, and generates "infinite mana" flickering your lands, you'll either a) need a way to insert a piece ((Bogardan Hellkite) without stoping the loop, also if there are no other targets, you won't be able to stop the loop, b) Stop the loop and then restart it if it's a flicker ability, if your relying on an spell then no need to restart, but any of those dragons you would have to restart.

Omen of the Forge would work, but feels it's utlitiy outside of the WGD combo is just as bad or worse than the Bogardan Hellkite. Need something that can come in during the WGD combo, that can win the game by itself, but not be 9 mana and useless outside the combo.

would a mill piece work like, Necron Deathmark?

necron deathmark has removal with it but if cheaper cmc is better: Nimana Skydancer or for 1 cmc Thieves' Guild Enforcer?

Hey LordKunai,

It's a good thought. None of those are really utility cards outside the combo either. Thieves' Guild Enforcer maybe could be used to disrupt top-deck tutors like Vampiric Tutor or Mystical Tutor.

Mana cost isn't a concern because WGD makes infinite mana, but outside the combo Necron Deathmark pretty awful too, so is Bogardan Hellkite but he is playable with Kaalia of the Vast from hand and works with Dragon Tempest etc.

If an opponent has a shuffle titan in their deck too, then this line of play wouldn't kill them either. It's a great line of though, but none of those are quite there yet as combo pieces but also utility outside the combo.

Spirits, well yeah, I know... but you were talking about utility outside the combo, which is why I referenced the possible importance of the cmc of a potential bogardan hellkite replacement.

Yeah, we may just have to wait for a replacement because I looked for a while trying to find a replacement and I came up empty haha.