Thank you for the explanation. Do you play on discord btw? I would love to have a game against you or chat it up.

Hey Sir_Flash,

I clicked the link to sign up for the Discord server, and I setup an account, Spirits #9801, if that helps. It still doesn't show on my Tappedout profile though (still says join our discord server on my profile).

I haven't figured it out enough how to actually play games on there, I'll see if I can figure it out this weekend. I've been playing some Arena lately online too in my spare time.

If you have some pointers to get me started can try and figure it out.

I'll take a look at your deck as well, very fancy looking for sure.

Definitely, when I get home I’ll connect with you. If you aren’t on I’ll get with you ASAP. I’m off for Wednesday.

I was logged off, no wonder why I never received any notifications.

After reading some comments I must add:

Life gaining is definitely important in this deck, I cant tell you how much life I've spent tutoring especially with Dark Confidant , that thing always hits me with big A/D/D. I might actually have to add back in some life gain. I agree about replacing either/both Gisela, the Broken Blade and Baneslayer Angel . Their lifelink is what's keeping them in place plus their synergy with Kaalia of the Vast . Until there are better replacements, they'll be sticking around.

After playing around with Hatred . I could never seem to use it comfortably, in other words, afraid to use it due to low life. Unlike you Spirits This seems to be a consistent issue with me for whatever reason it may be. Majority of my wins so far, my life's been in the single digits. Too close to comfort.

If i'm going to keep Hatred in, I might take out Gamble and put back Whip of Erebos . Just so I can try to benefit off of Hatred

If i'm going to keep Gamble in, then I might replace Hatred with Dark Ritual I'm uncertain what I want to do. I still need ALOT more gameplay with this deck.

As of right now, Mox Diamond is inplace of Fellwar Stone , Gamble is taking the place of Terminate and Hatred is in place of Hellkite Tyrant , which i'm sure is throwing off the creature ratio but other than that, the deck is identical.

One thing I will add, During a game on T2, I played my land for turn, I Also threw out Mox Diamond having to discard a land. Missed my T3 Land drop, Which wouldn't have happened if I played a Fellwar Stone instead on T2. First time its happened, other than that, Mox Diamond has been doing well; it's just a speedier card. Thought i'd mention that because sometimes, discarding a land might cripple you a turn or two.

Hey weezel,

Lifegain is very important, it's like mana for this deck. I don't have enough life when needed for Hatred and even if I have an attacking Lifelink creature, sometimes don't have enough. Plus it's CMC5 isn't great.

I've also switched Gamble back in for Terminate out.

If I had Mox Diamond I would play it.

I found this combo, at Dab to Win! | Primer by Sir_Flash.

Leonin Relic-Warder + Animate Dead (or Dance of the Dead or Necromancy ) + Goblin Bombardment | Infinite Damage

Leonin Relic-Warder + Animate Dead + Razaketh, the Foulblooded | Almost Infinite Tutor (Bound by Life)

I swapped Reveillark back in, and moved out Angel of Serenity to try Leonin Relic-Warder . See how that goes, I'm below proper % of A/D/D now as well. Probably will take Reveillark out and put Angel of Serenity back in. 22 A/D/D was marginal, but I'm hoping the addition of Faithless Looting counteracts the 1 less A/D/D.

I always say this before building a deck. Draw is the most powerful mechanic in magic Spirits. That's why i have so much, the right amount of tutors + draw give you consistency. The ADD ratio should not bother you as much as long as the ones you are running help you to your wincon. I actually surprised to not see Recruiter of the Guard Imperial Recruiter and Sneak Attack btw.

weezel Life should always be considered a resource in commander, but if its that much of an issue to you Serra Ascendant & Children of Korlis should be looked at as well as Blood Artist which can be looped with to win. I think its a mistake to take out Gamble, its definitely worth unless you do not use your graveyard as much.

So Spirits, I added in Leonin Relic-Warder which you found from Sir_Flash deck? which I Still haven't looked into but I will.

I played a total of four games this weekend. I wanted to try using Leonin Relic-Warder , So I intentionally played Two games trying to win with it. well, Both games...I was able to win on T4 using Leonin Relic-Warder . Which at first I thought was going to take awhile to pull off, having to tutor for everything but I found it to be quite simple.

Another game, which was a pod of 5, I won on T6 using the good ol' Buried Alive | Karmic Guide + Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Restoration Angel . I could have actually won on T5 but I misplayed. So what I did was, having 3 Mana left open, I Grim Tutor on T5, grabbing Reanimate , setting me up for the win on T6, when I should have played Mausoleum Secrets (which I also had in hand) to tutor for Reanimate and with the remaining I could have played Reanimate that same turn. Which goes to show, I still need a lot more play time, So these simple mistakes don't happen.

The last game was 1V1. I could have won on T5 with Kaalia of the Vast + Master of Cruelties but I didn't end up playing it because, well, I felt a little bad. And I ended up losing on T7 that game But realistically, we could just say I won if I hadn't shown mercy.

Sir_Flash Lifegaining is working but its hard to maintain to utilize Hatred . The reason being is i'm almost instantly the target. It's hard holding onto life when i'm up against 3 or even 4 other players and they're all pinging/attacking me each turn. The lifegain is there but it never maintains along with my tutoring, just makes it harder for the use of Hatred . But I have yet to die by life total becoming 0. I'm either knocked out by infect or by someone else going infinite before I do.

And the thing with Gamble , every time I play it, I cross my fingers and I clench my jaw and think to myself "I can win if it plays in my favor" but then it's like it can set me back a bit if it doesn't. I may have played this deck a total of 25 times so far and used Gamble about 8 of those times and it's played in my favor each time except for once (during a tournament of all games, go figure)

Although Sneak Attack is great. I don't see it fitting the tempo of this build. I could be wrong, Spirits would have a better assessment about this than I would but so far from playing, the deck would have to alter a bit to accommodate Sneak Attack which would take on a slightly different build. I have yet to win a game with creatures attacking, the only thing I could see it working with is throwing out Rune-Scarred Demon or Doom Whisperer for some quick tutoring and possibly even Demonlord Belzenlok or Razaketh, the Foulblooded . But with a to cast and an additional to play, it gets me thinking of just throwing in Diabolic Tutor as an additional tutor source. But I could certainly be wrong and i'd be more than happy to receive some clarification as i'm still fairly new and getting a hang of this.

weezel

The Razaketh LRW lines Sir_Flash is referencing come directly from my work on Kaalia in a competitive meta. If you and others here are interested in those ideas, you should join the discord. If you want full cutthroat combo kaalia designed to be playing against hulk, storm, and heavy stax that is where you want to be.

As for Spirits 's list, while your points have merit that kiki could benefit by the inclusion of recruiters and sneak attack, let the man run what he wants. The most optimal list is the one that fits its meta and brings its pilot the most happiness.

I agree, it is much easier to talk it out among-st all kaalia players on the server.

Sir_Flash

It depends entirely on what a person's aim is, comp, high powered, casual, and what personal preferences they're trying to meet, but the diversity in how to brew something really is what makes edh such a good format.

Kiki Kaalia has a long tradition; tw0handt0uch had a pretty fleshed out hate bears version once upon a time, before that I threw a list up on the cedh reddit about three years ago which was spliced with worldgorger combos, and before that you've got multiple articles talking about the idea going back to nearly the day the general was first spoiled. But despite this Spirits has his own unique version.

But I can tell you for certain that with Kaalia, going deeper into LRW Razaketh will kill off the Kiki package.

Hi Sir_Flash,

Until I found your Leonin Relic-Warder combo, there really wasn't much in the way of power <=2 creatures to Tutor with Imperial Recruiter where in my Mizzix, the Storm EDH deck he's critical, nor was there anyone with Toughness <=2 with Recruiter of the Guard . I've added them to my maybeboard now for consideration. A Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker in my hand is a terrible, terrible place, I had to add Faithless Looting just to have a tutor-able solution to that possibility, but also evaluating, Tortured Existence and Chains of Mephistopheles .

Sneak Attack is the same CMC4 as Kaalia of the Vast , and along similar lines, only it uses instead of Haste to activate the ability. Early on I did quite a bit with Sneak Attack but if Kaalia of the Vast wasn't working (no A/D/D in hand for example) Sneak Attack wasn't either and didn't need the redundancy.

Sneak Attack + Imperial Recruiter / Recruiter of the Guard is a combo.

Cheat in Imperial recruiter, find Kiki. Cheat in Kiki. Copy Recruiter. Find Village Bell-Ringer / Felidar Guardian . Cheat it in. Untap Kiki. Win.

Hi weezel,

I was getting pretty upset last week, when I saw God-Eternal Kefnet and Jace, Wielder of Mysteries then I saw the Leonin Relic-Warder + Animate Dead , I abuse him with Oblivion Ring in other decks, Brago, the Banisher $50 EDH with Reveillark and Alesha, Boros' Crusade $50 EDH with Fiend Hunter , but this one BLEW my mind, it's so simple, good on it's own, and doesn't need any off-synergy cards!

Sounds like your having great success with this type of build! When T2-T4 good ol' Buried Alive is the back-up plan, in pretty good shape. He's the Master of Cruelties should never show mercy! If they winning on T7 that's pretty good too, no fun in dragging the game out past T5!

Agreed Hatred is just too much of a life commitment, even when casting it on a Lifelink creature, the initial burden of life is too much, Leonin Relic-Warder is far more value as an alternative win-con! I always find it strange that people fear Kaalia of the Vast , sit down at table with Kess, Dissident Mage , Prossh, Skyraider of Kher , and Derevi, Empyrial Tactician , it's wrong evaluation that Kaalia of the Vast is the highest threat, even if I resolve a Avacyn, Angel of Hope early.

Sneak Attack doesn't get me a Buried Alive so it's not as useful, in many cases (without a Razaketh, the Foulblooded or Rune-Scarred Demon ) for example. Sneak Attack needs other synergistic cards to be truly effective (unless you have a Razaketh, the Foulblooded )

Hey Bad_Dog,

Thanks for the advice. That combo also looks pretty good. Far outside of my scope, would need: Sneak Attack + Imperial Recruiter + Village Bell-Ringer . None in the deck right now. It's still CMC4 () Sneak Attack + CMC1 () Imperial Recruiter + CMC1 () Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + CMC1 () Village Bell-Ringer = CMC7 (), whereas Buried Alive + Reanimate is CMC4 (). Both 2 card combos.

Interesting one though. Save me Seething Song !

Spirits

Correct, that's why kiki was eventually dropped in my list because I realized that in order to get the most out of that line you need to run a full suite of reanimation effects plus the kiki support. Without that, the list becomes too reliant on buried alive and you risk having combo pieces in hand. Which is why I dropped it and focused on Worldgorger, which is half of that in terms of cards needed, lets you run more card advantage, has a cheaper sneak attack line at , and can be cheated out via kaalia's rune-scarred demon lines.

Those lines are what led directly to Razaketh (now we only search for the demon instead of demon + animate dead) and now the same is happening with Doom Whisperer. As for seething song, I'd be happy to save it for you. Doom Whisperer + yawgmoth's will does well with that card.

I just wanted to say one thing... Regarding signets, you say that they aren't efficient because they require 3 mana to cast and use. I would like to counter that argument. I used to think the same exact thing and then someone said to me "it's basically like playing an extra land". On T2 make signet, T3 play a land you have access to 4 mana. It basically gets you ahead by one turn per signet available.

Hi DrkNinja,

It's not that a Orzhov Signet is bad (in my deck), or Rakdos Signet , or Boros Signet (No is worse).

It's when you compare to it's direct replacements:

T1 Swamp + T2 Plains + T3 Orzhov Signet (No ) to activate, turn is over.

Now consider: T1 Swamp + T2 Plains + T3 Talisman of Hierarchy + Vampiric Tutor for the same CMC as the Orzhov Signet .

Talisman of Hierarchy is a CMC

Orzhov Signet is CMC + CMC = CMC

Both give you 4 mana on T4, so does a Fellwar Stone for CMC.

Also, the Orzhov Signet tells you what colors you get, what if you have a Swamp and need , instead you spend to get .

Signets are a CMC mana rocks that created colored mana at a net cost of but still requires .

Talisman are a CMC mana rock that create colored mana at a net cost of , only requires .

They are far less efficient than their direct replacements, unless you want to get to 10 or 12 mana rocks in your deck, I don't see any need for the signets. Next to Talismans and and arguably Fellwar Stone it's a second best option only.

Hope that makes sense?

Huh... I forget about the talismans honestly...

So what is your thoughts on Kaalia, Zenith Seeker . I see her as a Scry 6 and/or Draw 3. Yeah its a one shot deal (for the most part) but just to be able to dig a little deeper in the deck and be pretty nice.

Hi Hodor1,

Kaalia, Zenith Seeker is good, she's a CMC3 draw spell for Razaketh, the Foulblooded . She can possibly draw you 3 cards if you hit right. I haven't fully evaluated where she'll slot in yet.

Vilis, Broker of Blood (M20) is definitely an auto-include in Kaalia of the Vast , + 2 Life = Draw 2 cards. Amazing!

I'll mention you on some more feedback as I dig through the M20 adds. Hoping there will be a new dragon as well!

Thought's on Sephara, Sky's Blade ?

Hi LordKunai,

Sephara, Sky's Blade is a good standard/limited card with the reduced cost, but not able to play the way my Kaalia of the Vast is built. She's not really suitable because I don't have a great deal of other creatures to protect, and she doesn't protect herself.

I wouldn't run her in this type of build, there are some builds I could see her being useful though.

hey Spirits, was also wondering.... what is the purpose of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in this deck?

Iona banned as of today in Commander.