Great description, +1.

I run a Roon of the Hidden Realm-list with Karmic Guide, Reveillark, Saffi Eriksdotter and Fiend Hunter, but I'm not sure if I should add in a sac outlet. Is their utility good enough independent of the combo? Will it be worth it in a non-reanimation-strategy?

The benefit of running the sac outlets is two-fold. First and foremost, they enable combos, which for Karador is the primary wincon (but maybe not for Roon, so your mileage may vary). Second, they allow you to protect your creatures from the nastier kinds of removal (exile, steal, tuck, etc). In Karador, this is viable, because creatures going to your graveyard isn't really any different from them going back to your hand. You can just keep reusing them from either zone. For Roon however, espcially a build not running reanimation, it isn't clear that you'll get much benefit beyond application to combo. Since you can't reanimate them, they're as good as exiled/tucked when they die anyway.

I've been trying to make my Karador list more competitive recently, and I've taken a great deal of inspiration from your list... thanks!

I have one question, though. Do you have thoughts on Wrath of God, Damnation, and Living Death in Karador decks? I've noticed that very few Boonweaver combo lists run these cards. I suppose if you're running lots of cheap mana dorks, you don't really want to accelerate into a wrath, but I'm surprised I haven't seen any lists with wraths instead of mana dorks. I like the idea of cheap wraths in Karador because Karador is better equipped than other commanders to come back from them. That being said, I can imagine wraths being too conditional and not proactive enough in a combo deck. But on the other hand, a turn 4 wrath is such a powerful effect against certain decks. Also, alongside cards like Buried Alive and Survival of the Fittest, Living Death has gotten me some quick wins, though the card isn't without flaw, considering people can exile your graveyard or have even better things in their own yards.

As you can see, I have a lot of cognitive dissonance regarding this issue, so I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Glad you found the list helpful!

I don't think that wrath effects are necessarily counter to a good Karador strategy. In fact, they wind up benefiting you much more than your opponents most of the time. My reason for leaving them out is mostly meta related, but in broad terms:

• Boonweaver builds really don't need much setup, so you don't have to stall your opponents while looking for pieces. If you've got a sac outlet and Boonweaver, it's generally gg. The speed at which the combo can come together has led me to shed most wrath effects, because often the game doesn't go long enough to need them and those slots can be devoted to reinforcing the combo.
• Karador doesn't need to rely on wraths for stability in the incremental, long game. He has tools like Teeg, Iona, Elesh Norn, and Peacekeeper which all do tremendous work in keeping opponents where you want them until you can get what you need to end the game.
• Karador is very creature oriented, and as you mentioned, running mana dorks disincentivizes wiping the board.
• This build has a modest dredge subtheme, so sorcery based wrath effects are dissapointing when flopped into your yard. They don't help Karador and can't easily be reused. You'll notice I do run Pernicious Deed which is powerful because it can be recurred with Sun Titan, can be played early game, and hits more than just creatures, which is very useful given how many gameplans rely on artifacts and enchantments.
• Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite is very much like a static wrath effect in competitive circles because she hoses so many prevalent generals and their strategies. Survival of the Fittest into Elesh Norn and then Loyal Retainers is a solid play if you need to buy some time getting the combo out.
• I actually used to run Living Death but eventually pulled it out, because I so rarely needed it. It definitely results in an insta-win whenever it resolves though, so I rate it high on Karador's list. I'd then probably rate Toxic Deluge as the next in line after that.

Hi, I found your list through reddit and just wanted to stop by and give you your +1. I used your list to criticize my own Karador list here: Miracle Max and just recently added the Boonweaver combo.

I was thinking of adding Blood Artist (to set up the additional combo of Saffi Eriksdotter and Loyal Retainers to my list and your input would be appreciated.

Somnambulist,

Note that in looking over your deck, I'm coming from a meta where if you don't win by T4 someone else will, so being able to find the combo and win fast is really important. Your meta is likely different and actually playing magic is probably something people want to do, so grains of salt and so on.

Blood Artist is great for the Boonweaver combo or anytime you happen to land any two infinitely recurring creatures and a sac outlet. I notice you don't run Acidic Slime, so I wonder what you want to do with Boonweaver if someone exiles your Blood Artist? Sure you can put all your creatures into play, but if you don't win right there, you're ripe for wrath into mass gy hate which isn't fun. I'd throw a fallback in there with either Acidic Slime or Falkenrath Noble. Either works because they are game ending if a combo comes together while also being useful outside of a combo (Acidic for Spot removal, Noble for coming out on the good side of a wrath effect. Though I'd rate Acidic is being better).

Looking over your list I see general cohesion, but wonder about some things:

• Avenger of Zendikar - You aren't playing aggro and this is expensive and non-legendary. Maybe swap for another reanimation spell to bolster your combo play line (for instance Dance of the Dead or Life//Death).
• Necropotence - Though excellent elsewhere, this is the anti-Karador. It totally blanks Survival of the Fittest (one of your premier tools for finding win-cons) and makes it very hard to get things out of your hand for reanimation after you've drawn them (for instance if you draw Boonweaver off Necropotence on turn 3, what then? You can't cast it for a couple turns and can't discard it without exiling.) At the end of the day it just works against what you're trying to do.
• Tooth and Nail - Seriously, how many times have you actually cast this? You have the machinery to combo out I would say around T4 or T5 which make this unnecessary. Replace with something cheaper (mox ramp or a reanimation spell)
• Ashen Rider - He's very strong, but you might want to run more reanimation to play him early or just cut him for something cheaper.
• Buried Alive - Yeah, you aren't running it and should be.
• Hermit Druid - You're running 6 nonbasics. That gives you an expected dredge or around 17 cards with each activation. That's kind of high. You don't want to leave yourself too vulnerable to gy hate. I run 9 nonbasics for an expected dredge of 11, which is much more conservative.
• Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth - Why? What's this buying you? If you can afford it, you should be running all 9 fetches and drop Urborg, Citadel, the karoos and Shizo.

Thank you for the comprehensive write up. Have you considered swapping out Fiend Hunter for Banisher Priest since it's all one trigger on the Priest to protect the combo a bit? With the Fiend Hunter someone could kill the Hunter in response to the ETB and leave your Karmic Guide stuck in Exile. With the Priest, you're just left with a dead Priest and a stalled combo.

HarmlessPenguin,

I would consider Banisher Priest if he could target our own creatures. The fact that he can only target opponent creatures makes it a little awkard ;)

Ahh, missed that.

Deck is awesome! Thanks for posting! Any recent changes? Or do you keep up to date?

ibTRUE,

I'm using the list in an online tournament being conducted through reddit (one round every two weeks or so). We aren't allowed to update lists while the tourney is in flight, so it's frozen in time from a month and half ago. I have multiple changes that will be made as soon as that wraps up. Spoiler -> adding a couple more tutors to further bolster consistency in hitting the combo early as well as finding hate pieces to disrupt threatening plays.

I'm also writing a Karador Boonweaver primer for MTGS that will explore this list in great detail.

What's the thinking behind not running Caves of Koilos? And the Wooded Bastion?

keattz,

Wooded Bastion is actually in the list. Caves was in there once and then was pulled to add basics so that Hermit Druid wouldn't flip the whole deck. Since Hermit isn't in the list anymore, Caves may find its way back in. We'll see what happens.

(follow up for keattz)

Realizing now that you were perhaps asking why Bastion is in the list. Being able to convert W into G is very useful when trying to get multiple Survival of the Fittest activations in at the end of last opponent's turn.

I see. Any particular reason for Bastion over Twilight Mire, then? Sorry if I'm clogging up your comments :P

Not really. It may come out for something that more reliably yields a color T1. The land base really hasn't been focused on in quite awhile. All the scrutiny has been toward reinforcing the combo and hate.

good luck in the tournament your in! When your done, be sure to share your changes!

Lovely description. I was actually captivated reading this.

Awesome deck!

Hey Cobblepot,

If you're still around, I'm very impressed with the effort that went into the creation of this Karador deck. I recently followed your works, playtested the deck a couple times, and the results seem as promising as my predictions. I have two questions:

1) Why is there no Horizon Canopy?2) When attempting to assemble the Boonweaver combo earlygame, I've noticed there are some complications in the Academy Rector route; getting a third creature takes some hurdles to overcome (maintaining consecutive land drops while casting spells). It's a three-card recipe for a two card combo. My question is: would adding Dryad Arbor make the deck run smoother? If Dryad Arbor is worth adding, could the same be said for Green Sun's Zenith?

Thanks!

kind of suprised Sol Ring got cut.

Vexton

That was a meta call and intentional. It got replaced with Carpet of Flowers. This produces mana of any color (which is better most of the time since we don't need that much colorless), it can't be locked down by Stax pieces, is an enchantment instead of an artifact, and most of the time winds up producing more mana that Sol Ring would.

Hey Cobblepot,

Your deck inspired me while I was building my own Karador deck, and I really like it as my first truly competitive deck. I built your version (minus Imperial Seal + Mana Crypt), and have been toying with it recently and trying to learn the ins and outs and the lines of play. It has been a really fun exercise for me.

I've been following your list now for several months, and was curious about your most recent decision to include Containment Priest? Earlier in the comments you mentioned that you wouldn't run it since it's a symmetric effect, and I tend to agree with your previous sentiment. What caused you to change your mind?

Also, on a side note, what role does Sheoldred play in the deck? I find myself always looking for Norn or Iona, and so far I haven't even attempted to get Sheoldred. Is there a reason she isn't more denial? My question is partially because I want a better understanding of this deck, but also because I've been working on a Meren deck that also attempts to combo out in a similar way. For Meren, I've taken a lot of inspiration from this deck, as well as some high powered Jarad lists, and ultimately came up with something resembling Modern Pod. I ultimately cut Sheoldred from that list because I deemed her too Winmore, but after seeing it in your Karador list, I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.

Thanks!

TarredandFeathered,

Thanks for the kind mention!

Containment Priest is an experiement, but likely to stay in. Yes she is symmetric and we can't win with her in play, but the same can be said of Hushwing Gryff (whom she replaces). If you're ready to combo out, you need a sac outlet in play anyway, so there isn't a problem there.

The motivation to put her in is a meta call as she neutralizes a lot of prevalent threats in top tier lists: Yisan+Cradle/Chord of Calling/Loyal Retainers in Derevi (and Derevi's onto the battlefield ability), all creatures in Brago, plenty of hosers in Daretti and Slobad, LabMan and Notion Thief in Storm (if YawgWill), everything in Jarad, everything in Angry Hermit, the list goes on. The fact that she's 2 cmc and flash just makes her really potent.

Sheoldred is in as an anti control measure (similar to Apprentice Necromancer). Chances of an opponent having Stifle in hand is normally remote. Thus, putting Boonweaver into play off of a triggered or activated ability is much more resilient to countermagic than using a reanimation spell. Normally people see Sheoldred and don't see a threat because she's 'slow and clunky' and doesn't interact with decks that aren't oriented around creatures. However, when you activate Survival in response to her upkeep trigger and use it to get Boonweaver into play, they realize there is nothing to be done and you've got the game. Also, you never hard cast her, she always comes in off Retainers.

Hi! I've been building a decklist based off yours for the past few months now, and I had a few questions regarding certain cards and how well they work(ed) for you, and what alternative suggestions you might have.

Bloom Tender - How reliable is she as a mana dork? I'm worried that in the early game she might be a little lackluster compared to maybe Joraga Treespeaker.

Scavenging Ooze - This is a card I'm experimenting with at the moment, and works as powerful anti-reanimator in my meta while also giving me life to sustain against aggressive decks. Is there a reason you don't run this?

Carpet of Flowers - I see this is one of your latest additions, so how has it performed for you? I would say my meta runs about 70% Blue, but it does happen from time to time in our Multiplayer pods that I don't have a single Blue player at the table (maybe once every 6-8 games). Understanding that it's a meta call, would you say it's a reliable card even if there's a chance you won't be facing a Blue player?

Seal of Cleansing / Seal of Primordium - What would you say to running one of these in the deck in place of say Reclamation Sage as a way to deal with Humility? It's Sun Titan'able, and tutor-able with 5 different tutors including Shred Memory.

Fleshbag Marauder - Is there a chance of you wanting to put this card back into the deck for Voltron commanders?

Acidic Slime - For 5 mana he doesn't really do much more than Harmonic Sliver, other than the chance to hit a land and a 2/2 Deathtouch body. Sure, you could combo out with Reveillark / Karmic Guide, but isn't he too slow otherwise? How often is his ability to hit a land useful, and how often have you won with him via combo?

Lastly, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben-esque effects - Is the redundancy so necessary that it warrants 4 other variants in the deck? I understand it slows down control decks significantly, but I'm curious to how it's affected your gameplay in terms of your own plays and how your opponents deal with them.

I apologise for the extensive posts, I've just had a lot of speculative ideas in my head for a while and wanted your input and reasonings on them :)