I honestly have a shoebox of cards that can perform well in this kind of deck, as well as 2-3 other versions such as a combo with Boonweaver Giant and Reveillark, or an attrition based deck with stacking Grave Pact effects. This version is more or less a generic enough reanimator deck without sacrificing quality of effects. Its always a puzzle creating a balance between ramp, grave dump, reanimation, and utility. This is what ive come up with so far.

just looking for peoples opinions, or open discussions about Karador in general, so far its an amazingly fun deck. just watch out for Bojuka Bog's I would appreciate anyone's offerings, suggestions, likes, upvotes or criticisms.

Adding in Saffi Eriksdotter opens up a combo with her, Sun Titan, and any sac outlet.

I would personally add in Yosei, the Morning Star. It can essentially be used to lock a player out of the rest of the game.

It is also the main reason I took Yosei, the Morning Star out of the deck. I agree he is very efficient at doing the job, but you wont keep many friends that way. Saffi Eriksdotter might make her way into the deck, I was also thinking about Conjurer's Closet as a more safe for work option. The whole infinite combo things are probably not kosher for kitchen table magic with friends, but those options are definitely available for my other group that I'm not entirely close with. I absolutely love abusing Animate Dead enchantments with sun titan, maybe not the most efficient reanimate, but fun for reusing your yard or putting a big beater back on the field.

True enough, I don't use her for infinite combos, but she's usually amazing even without them.

Shocked to not see a Reveillark. Combos really good with Karmic Guide. Also, I would not run City of Brass as cards like Mind Over Matter could kill you.

Yeah Reveillark is an extremely good card, and it does create a really good combo with a lot of cards in the deck. Its just probably a little above what my friends can handle at the moment. Im at odds with wanting to optimize the deck, and wanting to keep my opponents for playing magic. Sure, I can turn this deck very easily into Boonweaver Giant deck wins, but it would take away from having fun playing magic.

So what I tried to do here is have a deck that would be solid and not fall down easily, yet a deck that can be played with people of all skill and tolerance levels. Its a difficult balance when your deck can so easily become "That Deck" or so cutthroat people will stop playing with you.

I've learned that if you "dumb" down a deck for others to play against, they never get better. Might as well just play a pre-made deck IMO.

That actually made me laugh pretty hard. its easy enough to switch cards out of the sleeves or I could have the other versions ready to go. like the Grave Pact, Dictate of Erebos vesion, or the Boonweaver Giant, Pattern of Rebirth version.

Right now there are so many cards I want to try out but I honestly felt bad locking the game with Yosei, the Morning Star its a great card tho. I should find spots for Saffi Eriksdotter and Reveillark. I agree City of Brass is a crapshoot against tappy tappy cards ill see if i can get my hands on a Mana Confluence instead.

It seems like our decks have a lot in common in terms of our reasoning for not powering them up, that's pretty cool!

The mana dork package is definitely interesting, I'm curious how those perform for you? (I'm assuming it speeds up your first few turns and then they becomes willing sacrifice targets)

If you're looking for a card that scales PERFECTLY with however you want to play the game, try Eldrazi Displacer. That card is seriously so fun to play with, and the best part is you get to control exactly how good it is. Sure, you can flicker something like Reveillark over and over in a competitive game, but you can also sit back on defense and flicker attackers, play politically and flicker opponents' creature to give them some group-hug value, or just be silly and flicker the same Wood Elves until you're out of forests. Colorless lands are also usually not an issue, you already have at least 6 colorless sources that I can see, and it would be super easy to replace like Sunpetal Grove with Brushland or Isolated Chapel with Caves of Koilos.

Personally I think Oracle of Mul Daya is a little overrated, but it's definitely not worthless, I just remember that I never thought about taking her out because she was supposed to be this auto-include bomby green staple, but she never really got me more than one extra land out before being targeted and dying.

This post is getting long, so I'll briefly list a few cards that I'd recommend if a spot ever opens up for you: Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim is a solid sac outlet with upside if you've gained a few life during the game. Knight of the Reliquary is always underrated by my opponents and ramps me about 4 or 5 lands along with tutoring a sac land every time I get her out, she's like the only creature in my deck that does nothing right away because she's just that awesome. Sidisi, Undead Vizier is an amazing tutor on a stick for five mana, and Chord of Calling is even better, it's usually a blowout.

Overall I love the deck, I think you did a great job of checking off all the Karador boxes!

Oracle of Mul Daya was actually one of the few cards on my under-performance list. I should be finding a replacement for it pretty soon. I would be a little concerned running Eldrazi Displacer because of the lack of colorless sources even if i changed the ratio, it would still be semi conditional. I would probably run Restoration Angel instead.

I like the direction you've gone with your Karador. Also, I never fail to appreciate a player who values the experience of Magic more than they care about ruthlessly winning, so I respect your self-imposed limits on power level. That said, I see some openings for maybe a couple of cards:

Adarkar Valkyrie could be used as an alternate Saffi Eriksdotter. Obviously the problem with those is that they're too predictable to reliably save your creatures from opposing removal, but they're a great way to re-use your own sacrifice outlets.

Seems like your protection against flying-type archetypes (Talrand, Sky Summoner or an angel build like Aurelia, the Warleader, for example) might be weak. Depending on your meta, you might consider some more creatures with flying such as Teneb, the Harvester or Archon of Justice.

You might also be pretty vulnerable to control. Silence would help you successfully cast a creature, while Alpha Authority or Canopy Cover or Aspect of Mongoose would keep it safe. Options on a stick include Archetype of Endurance.

Last thing -- I think the amount of mana dorks and ramp you've got might be a tad excessive. Your average CMC is pretty low, and I'm not seeing much use in tons of mana besides just casting your Praetors early (though I could be overlooking something). I've gotten immense value from ramp creatures like Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, Sifter of Skulls, and Pawn of Ulamog, which makes me think you could maybe increase the utility of the 3-4 range of your mana curve. Obviously take this with a grain of salt, because I've got enough 3-drops in my Karador to fill several trade binders, haha, but maybe if our two decks met in the middle it'd be the perfect balance.

I'm with BreadManDan here. I think people at your table would do better off with a competitive opponent for inspiration to get better rather than you stooping to their level. That being said, there are several ways to play karador, so you don't really have to go the classic "Boonweaver Giant" super-combo deck or the mid-range gravepact rout. You could just as easily make this deck anything you want it to be. There are a couple suggestions I would make though.

Anguished Unmaking > Shriekmaw. Yeah shriekmaw is repeatable, but anguished unmaking is instant speed and can deal with most threats.

Victimize. I see your Buried Alive and I believe it needs a this card because together they're like a Tooth and Nail that lower's karador's cost and let's be real, that Satyr Wayfinder is all but useless just staying on the field, so you should have no qualms about trading it for Vorinclex and Sun Titan.

And finally, Liliana Vess. If you're going low-competitive mid-range for your playgroup, lili is great. A repeatable tutor that can take attention away from you and focus it on her.

Wow, Thank you for all the wonderful input. I have recently put Victimize in the deck its a pretty amazing card. Ashen Rider is a pretty good threat eliminator. Im trying to stay away from spells with this deck unless it either reanimates, tutors, or manipulates the deck/graveyard. Single target spells while can get rid of a threat, goes against the nature of the deck which is to abuse the ETB/LTB effects of the creatures. Knights of the Reliquary is a great card but it would defeat the purpose of Life from the Loam in my opinion. Loam saves my ass many occasions where I would just dredge out all my lands instead of creatures.

Flying does get me pretty often, but decks with big flyers are vulnerable to cards like Fleshbag Marauder, Shriekmaw, Ashen Rider and company, also Luminate Primordial seems to be forgotten way too often and surprises the crap out of a table.

Yisan Chord is a little too slow for my liking, Survival of the Fittest just does the job a lot better while fueling the graveyard keeping fatty's out of your hand. I can definitely see myself taking out Oracle of Mul Daya but im lacking ideas for 4 drops that would be good for progressing Birthing Pod. The reason I run so many mana dorks is that Skullclamp is a beast. It progresses the early game quicker and is not a burden late in the game keeping the creature count in the graveyard pretty high. Maybe one can come out for another utility guy.

Why does Knight of the Reliquary defeat the purpose of Life from the Loam? If anything, they have good synergy in my opinion. A solid four drop that I'd recommend is Smothering Abomination, although you may not play enough creatures for it. One four drop definitely worth playing though is Disciple of Bolas, it draws cards and gets you ahead on life, it's really a great workhorse in my deck.

Just for me, im not looking to dump lands in the grave if im not going to be adding them back to my hand, it just keeps Knights on the small side for me, especially since im considering Splendid Reclamation or Creeping Renaissance as well. i had Disciple of Bolas in earlier but he might go back in. I was also messing with Hornet Queen for a while but it was just cute, and nothing much else.

Sidisi, Undead Vizier is a valuable addition to this sort of deck. She has all the versatility of Demonic Tutor, but on a creature body. Ever wanted to Survival up something that isn't a creature? She effectively lets you.

Fauna Shaman is the bad version of Survival, but it is the closest you can get to copy #2 of Survival. It still serves the function and if you really need the original, you can find it by using this to dig up Academy Rector or, if you also include her, Sidisi.

Phyrexian Delver is a crummy stand-in for Karmic Guide, but plays nicely enough with Karador and could be used on many of the big, powerful creatures you have.

Spore Frog under Karador is a kind of permanent fog effect.

The good and the bad thing about Karador, or any reanimation deck for that matter, is that you can practically use ANYTHING under the sun that has a useful effect. So the primary goal here would be to optimize the quality of the creatures you run without creating too many redundancies.

Sidisi, Undead Vizier would make a welcome addition to the deck, but it would also mean taking away from something else the deck could be doing.

Phyrexian Delver as you said is a bad version of Karmic Guide which doesnt put itself back in the graveyard (via echo)

Fauna Shaman is a bit tricky. I would love to have it in the deck, but again what would you remove for it? There really arent very many flex slots for me at this point, I only have a bout 3-4 cards I would change out

Spore Frog, or Spike Weaver are other cards ive been heavily considering, so that might come into play in the near future, but simply locking out combat doesnt necessarily win you the game. Many a time do you see different win conditions other than combat.

so if anything were to be added it would probably be more permanent removal such as the Archon of Justice or things like Woodfall Primus etc. always looking for ways to dump cards into the yard Mesmeric Orb is most likely my next target for the deck.

I was going over and over my options, and here's what I have come up with in terms of flex slots.

Oracle of Mul Daya - Not as effective as I would like her to be in this deck which already abuses the search creatures like Wood Elves and Sakura-Tribe Elder

Elves of Deep Shadow - Maybe just 1 too many mana dorks

Reya Dawnbringer - already have Sheoldred, the Whispering One which is significantly better

Diabolic Tutor - not totally sure I want to take this guy out for any reason but, if there is an upgrade or something ill consider it

Oversold Cemetery - its great for reusing utility but this card is vulnerable to be shut off due to the game situation.

Mirari's Wake I probably will end up leaving this in because its a super enabler

Cards right now I want to put in are Mesmeric Orb, Saffi Eriksdotter, Duplicant, and Kessig Cagebreakers. Conjurer's Closet, and Mindslicer are also on the periphery.

Oracle of Mul Daya, while powerful, doesn't necessarily do what this deck wants to do, so I can see why it might be too situational for you.

Elves of Deep Shadow isn't necessarily bad, although I prefer Avacyn's Pilgrim anyway, since there are a lot of good ways to make black mana and white is at a bit more of a premium. Finding the right number of mana-producers depends on the nuances of your deck, of course.

Reya Dawnbringer isn't quite as good as Sheoldred, but they're mostly comparable, and the effect is very strong. It's not as though having two copies of something that useful is bad, same reason I'm stilling using Phrexian Delver in my deck, although that card does kinda feel lackluster and I'm always just on the verge of cutting it. While you'll usually just tutor up Sheoldred anyway, Reya Dawnbringer can be nice backup or just a way to use the ability twice per turn. Sometimes Sheoldred might get exiled or otherwise turned off, but Reya can fill in for her. On some occasions I've used dredge effects to dump cards from my library into my graveyard, then used a spell to bring back Reya Dawnbringer, who then brought back Karmic Guide, leading to a loop that let me dredge more cards and eventually get an active Sheoldred. In the right deck, this effect is easily powerful enough to want two copies of it. All that being said, I'm considering cutting both Reya and Sheoldred from my own deck, just because of the turn delay: if I invest a reanimation spell in Sheoldred and my opponents kill her, I lose my investment. If I use the same spell on a creature that I can get something out of in the same turn, my investment is more likely to actually do something. It really depends on the deck, but my instinct is that if a black/white Commander deck has room for Sheoldred, it could probably stand to make room for Reya as well.

Diabolic Tutor is iffy. Demonic Tutor and Diabolic Intent are way faster, but good tutor options start to dry up pretty quickly. In other decks, I've employed Vampiric Tutor, but I never really got much out of it in a Karador deck. I'd still use it over Diabolic Tutor. I'd even use the super-obscure Grim Tutor over Diabolic Tutor, but ugh, actually having to use that card feels bad and I'd only do it in a really desperate, tutor-hungry combo deck. On the other end of the spectrum, you've got Sidisi, Undead Vizier. She's a bit more expensive than Diabolic Tutor, but way more versatile and you're already running a deck that can use her for some cool tricks.

Oversold Cemetery is a find card, but I had similar experiences with it in my deck, and ultimately decided it wasn't worth a slot. Great for casual decks in general, but maybe not so much for Commander, at least not with Karador.

Mirari's Wake is amazing once it's on the board. Having both of those effects gives you an advantage over time, which I'd say is comparable to having a planeswalker out. But it's probably never an ideal Rector target. People are going to think you're going for an infinite combo and gang up on you. Come to think of it, Saffi has the same problem, although technically in that case, they might be right.

I'd be apprehensive about Mesmeric Orb unless it's with something really cheesy like Basalt Monolith, and your deck isn't really about that.

Saffi Eriksdotter is one of my favorite cards in my Karador deck, but she enables infinite combos at the drop of a hat.

Duplicant is formidable. It does only hit creatures, but you have plenty of ways to deal with other permanents.

Kessig Cagebreakers is definitely a fun card. If you get enough cards into your graveyard quickly enough for it, other options include Spider Spawning, Ghoultree, Splinterfright, and Lord of Extinction.

Conjurer's Closet? I'm skeptical, but it's interesting. If you do include it, I'd be interested to hear how well it actually worked.

Mindslicer could be a godsend against some opponents. I just might make room for it in my own deck...

Thank you for your continuing feedback, everything helps when trying to figure out a puzzle this complicated. That being said:

Im still K'jiggering the deck a bit. Mesmeric Orb is not being run with, or as a gimmick. It is simply to put more cards in the yard. While it might give birth to problems running against other graveyard decks, I think it will give me more of an advantage. Duplicant will be going into the deck probably replacing Shriekmaw, Archon of Justice might make its way back into the deck because it does remove any type of permanent.

Grim Tutor is far outside my budget at $200+ are reasons i dont own a Bayou or Gaea's Cradle. Scrubland is probably the last of the expensive cards I will probably be able to afford.

Lord of Extinction has been on my periphery, but as large as it can become its only real purpose would be to flung it with Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord

Sidisi, Undead Vizier is always a nice card to have, and it does search any card, but finding space in this deck is nigh but impossible sometimes, especially if youre trying for more diversity of effects.

Testing the deck last night proved that Harvester of Souls is a friggin house and has earned a permanent spot in my deck, Drawing 3-4 cards each time I used Fleshbag Marauder.

I've considered Archon of Justice in the past, but mainly never tried it because I like Angel of Despair. It's mostly in corner cases where she matters, but there are some cool tricks like killing my own Ashen Rider or Reveillark. Realistically, Archon of Justice should be fine.

It's not that I think Mesmeric Orb is bad. It's just so much slower than dredge loops, and less controllable too. But it is just one card and it does do its job.

Yeah, I realize Grim Tutor isn't readily available, but really I don't think it's worth it anyway. Sidisi really should be good here. I could be wrong about how much the additional mana matters, but I'd think you'd get a lot more mileage out of Sidisi than out of Diabolic Tutor.

Harvester of Souls is very potent. I should probably be running it in my deck too. That effect is crazy in multiplayer. On a similar note, could this deck utilize The Gitrog Monster?

Thank you for responding. The Gitrog Monster might work if you run other cards to support it in synergy such as Knights of the Reliquary and Life from the Loam but im afraid it will not find space in my current iteration.

Made some changes last night - took out Oversold Cemetery, Reya Dawnbringer, Shriekmaw, Oracle of Mul Daya, and Elves of Deep Shadow. And replaced them with Saffi Eriksdotter, Reveillark, Duplicant, Sepulchral Primordial, and Mesmeric Orb.

Reya was a nice addition to Sheoldred, the Whispering One but I felt it was almost unnecessary. the primordial as of now is a test as it might not work too well with all of the exile (but in multiplayer, other people kill things and possibly play grave strategies as well). Duplicant seems like a solid upgrade to Shriekmaw even though it doesnt put itself in the graveyard. Saffi Eriksdotter, and Reveillark should be self explanatory to beef up the synergy of the creatures on board and in the graveyard.

I was thinking of just making one or two revolving slots to keep things fresh Mindslicer, Bane of Progress, Archon of Justice, and a few other cards are always knocking on the door to get in, but space is an ongoing dilemma.

I'd like to second Knight of the Reliquary, it's a really good card to tutor up utility lands and it is amazing with The Gitrog Monster.

Hey BlackLotus13 thank you for commenting on my karador deck. I don't like to tell people how to play their decks because everyone should play what makes them happy and enjoy magic but I can tell you a few cards that actually do a lot more than you would think at first. Kami of False Hope and Spore Frog are amazing at stopping people from killing you through damage especially since you can bring them back easily in a karador deck. Magister of Worth most of the times will kill every other creature on the board since most people don't want you to get your whole graveyard back and then you have advantage. The only other thing that does a lot for me is board wipes, I'm running 3 right now but I'm working on finding one for fumigate as well. Good luck building friend and have fun!

Yup, I know very well every Karador deck will look different. Spore Frog is a solid choice for the deck, right now i think im pretty vulnerable to flyers. The deck has been performing quite well recently since ive been testing Reveillark but the synergy might be a little too good with Karmic Guide, nobody likes all their permanents removed in one turn lol. I might put Magister of Worth in place of the black primordial and see what happens. I would probably put in Spike Weaver because im lacking decent 4 drops for Birthing Pod.