Bad card for standard play. Its been tested and doesn't do what you want fast enough. if it were a 4 drop instant then it would work. i guess you could try it for a control mirror but i would rather have Dragonlord Silumgar than that.

I feel the card has a place in commander but just not in standard its just too slow.

BTW Loco-Motive what do you think about a 4th charm main board?

Funny enough, I was play testing yesterday and came across an Abzan opponent who didn't use a single mono colored creature except Wingmate. Lions, Death dealers, and Anafenza, and I had two Charms just sitting in my hand.

I'm good with three in the main and one in the side for appropriate match ups.

well with charm its never a dead card can be tossed to find 2 cards that you do need. I have a lot of enchantments hitting the field at my shop mostly those new sieges usually the red, white, and black ones i just want some more enchantment hate. yes monocolored creature is tough to work with in this meta but for the most part you will be able to utilize the card for value.

I don't think I have a shortage with 3 in the main...and one sitting in the side for game 2 when I need to run all four. Would like to make sure I don't over-commit to it in a potentially dead game. Over-committing to Hero's Downfall makes sense to me, but with the Charm, I think 3 have been good. I have never run a 4th in the sideboard before until tonight, and have always been ok. Having one in the side will ease my mind where it's needed.

It is the draw effect that makes Charm so valuable to me. The other options just add value. Any time you EOT charm, you are setting yourself up for 3 fresh cards on your next turn.

Gugh.....life's decisions are SO hard! lol

Bring in the 4th Charm main for what? Side out one Downfall to run 3?

Last question, and I think I flop back and forth each week on this....one Dragon in the main and 2 Taz in the side, or 1 Taz in the main and throw the Dragon in the side?

I would side one of the blights unless your meta is hardcore tokens. Also, Silumgar serves a similar function so leave him in. I like tasigur but I sort of feel like the deck has moved away from him. He gets chumpblocked and he ties up a lot of mana which is dangerous if you arent already winning.

Check.

My setup was the same as what I have on my page except I tried nullify instead of disdain or negate. I also mained a fourth downfall and took out one kiora. I like nullify especially with the aggro decks. Nullify shifted the deck more into control having me to wait and put for the player to do something. Which I believe works. I tested against GW devo and got past it. Also stamped r/g monsters. I mainly tested the miami top 8 and 5k premier lists. Wanted to take this deck to Dallas SCG but something came up. Did very well in all matches except R/W prowess. I always had to go game two drowns,slimgar, ugin, and it would still be 50/50. With this setup, B/U control was my worst match up. It runs too too too many removals spells. Then the wincons are untouchable or protected. It has all the pieces game one for my deck. I would need to go extreme and take out all non-esstenial removal and anything green save for garuuk to get a even game, cause I also run Pearl from side.

LOL Loco-Motive your conclusion is the exact same thing i found out last night also going 2-2 I'm deciding i want to try and win a few fnm's and return back to wealth. Ive been feeling that wealth can definitely do work when i play him for 4-6 but id rather try more control in those slots and make my sideboard dedicated to something like 10 creatures in the side to just slam my opponent with a midrange g2.

Although i could of very well went 3-1 or 4-0 last night and went to top 8 with a room of 31. but my 2nd match i made a fatal error and pretty much gave him the win. I have had so much fun with this deck but i really wanna go full control being that planes walkers are what usually wins me the games not VW.

Ive found a decent replacement for VW. for my deck list at least. Last night a guy was playing my exact list except for 1 thing Whisperwood Elemental he was saying yes it usually hits lands or spells he doesn't usually need that the moment but it wins games and provides new creatures almost every turn. Also to crux turn 5 then whisper wood turn 6 is great. its just like a planeswalker in itself.

hey sync,

I wanted to test whisper but the problem is that its very killable. Unlike all the other creatures this deck has to offer so far. Even coursers are overlooked when they come out and left alive until they get in the way. I liked the build before this update. I would VW more as either a finisher looking at a quick win mid or late game, or a exile effect fueling ashioks ability to win the game. I never felt dictate needed to go back in after this deck started shifting to the control meta. Between wealth and ashiok I could literally pull the opponents own team out of the deck and onto the battlefield or push some or all of them back on top of the library and coming out for me especially creating a irony of say beating me down to turn around and see how it feels on the turn around, sometimes even rip a decks full combo like G/W or Jeskai or even whip, and if allowed kiora or garukk would bring up the rear.

Hey locoThe way this deck looks seems is a little too randomized for me to want to test in fnms. Your not seeing a solid production from your spell package whereas you know the likely hood of what needs and can come up to help the situation. For me whatever I wanted to see most for a general game 1 I run three to four of. I look at it in terms of percentage draw. Every 2 cards create a 25% and 3 yields about a 40-45% (depending on mana curve) chance that it will come up early in each game. Looking through that light this deck has a bigger emphasis randomizing effect to me in that spell department where I shuffle and play with the opening hand. Im guessing u always see suitai charm or the downfall most regular over all the other removal spells that you probably need at a time early game? Not knocking that your changing it up, but Im not sure this is what works toward a VW deck top 8 material.

FYI Reality shifts are beast. B/U shuts it down but, even forcing a opponents hand over a valuebale creature for two mana it value for itself. In my test with sarkans and mentors and such, when comboed out with negates and disdains nothing could hold a candle. Tried nullify and it works its about the equivalent to dissolve mana wise but stops the stupid strong creatures this deck can't handle except the pearl.

@ CapitonMurfish the thing is yes he is killable but removal should not be a reason to not run a card especially if that card can answer opponents quickly. I mean I've played garruk probably 7-9 times and at least 6 of them he was killed my end step or during my opponents next turn. but that doesn't dictate whether i play garruk like i said he is more like ashiok or kiora bc it takes a little while for him to really make a difference in the game but if protected he will win games. i see him as this wipe board turn 5 turn 6 whisper turn 7 swing 6 turn 8 swing 8 turn 9 swing leathal. like i said thats a game ender but he also provides a utility in the deck thats needed a creature base that comes from a deck that has no creatures. it will be able to stall most decks long enough to get good answers for potential threats.

I am not saying drop creatures to add it i was just saying I decided to try them out in my list bc mine is quite different from this. I've been using Satyr Wayfinder in place of courser and caryatid for my ramp and run more removal and draw in place of the courser spot.

i just dropped VW and 1 Murderous Cut to try out 3x Whisperwood Elemental it just makes sense to me even if i am running 3 Crux of Fate plus if it makes my opponent use a downfall on whisper that means 1 less for my walkers.

The "randomness" in the numbers is part of how the deck operates - and part of fine tuning the deck. That is also part of the difficulty in running a control shell. The 4-ofs are cards you don't mind seeing at any point in the game. Other cards, while useful can clog your hand if you don't or can't use the based on the decks you are facing. By running a mix of 1s and 2s, you allow yourself to maximize the value of each card while limiting the risk of non-interaction.

For example, sultan charm is primarily a dig spell, but can also serve as removal in a pinch. Heroes Downfall is spot removal for the most common threats in the format. Villainous Wealth is a card that only wants to be played after you have access to a critical mass of mana, hence it is a lower card count, since it is better to wait and dig for one rather than draw multiples and have a dead hand.

The biggest difficulty of the deck at the moment is meta-exposure. Thre are so many different kinds of aggro, it is impossible to be able to MD answers to everything. One week it is vulnerable to temur combo, then tokens, then graveyard recursion.

The best plan is to prepare for the best decks, or at least the most popular in your meta, and lean on the stregths of your win-cons in the more obscure match ups.

Most important, is to not be disheartened by a poor performance in any given week. This deck is meant to be the better deck over time. Not in every game. When you are preparing to vs the best decks in the format, losing 1 or 2 games in the early rounds will, by default, put you closur in position to the decks you are less prepared for. Sometimes you win your way out of the weeds, but it's always healthy to simply accept that today was not your day, and play to gain intelligence on up and coming decks. But don't be too hard on yourself or your deck, just because you had a bad showing.

In the end, mtg is largely driven by probability. Sometimes it's manascrew, sometimes it's matchups/pairings sometimes it's just a bad run of luck (or a really good one for your opponent). That is something you CANT control, and it can actually hurt your performance to try.

This deck just continues to feel so solid. I'll agree with any declaration that there's always room for improvement and adjustments to fit more appropriate cards where they're necessary, but I have definitely found that this iteration of the deck makes me feel more confident every time I play it.

For this week I kept things as close to the posted list as possible so that I could give constructive feedback, but there were a couple of things I felt more comfortable with before FNM fired. I tried the MB Liliana Vess this week, and I will unfortunately be taking her out. Any time she was in my hand, she wasn't right for the situation and I simply found myself wishing that she were the Jace's Ingenuity that she was swapped in for, or even a third copy of AEtherspouts (which I am strongly leaning toward). In nearly every case where she was my scry option or a choice while resolving Dig Through Time she was never in a position to be powerful enough to be the choice. She's not leaving the full 75 yet, but unless I find myself in a control matchup (which did not happen this week at all), I don't see her as valuable enough.

I took the opportunity to add a second Ugin, the Spirit Dragon by removing Garruk, Apex Predator in an effort to have a stronger endgame. Garruk is by no means a weak card, but last week I found Ugin to be just such a game ender and Garruk far more situational than immediately effective that I relegated him to the board and sided him in primarily in situations where I was concerned about opposing planeswalkers (primarily Ugin). The real end game for this deck is Ugin and/or Villainous Wealth and the way this deck is constructed doesn't feel to me like the right place for Garruk in the main, and if you have any solid feedback as to why I'm wrong, I am definitely all ears, and not only because I have a foil copy and want to use it as much as possible!

As well, Silumgar, the Drifting Death was an absolute powerhouse when he got boarded in. His matchup against Stormbreath Dragon is incredible. Straight up hexproof on a 3/7 that nukes tokens puts Prognostic Sphinx to shame, and this deck is especially suited to use him to great advantage. We have so many ways to clear the board before deploying him, and/or using targeted removal to get his damage through that I've considered adding one copy to the mainboard. And if anyone thinks that a hit for three isn't powerful enough, I'll counter that argument by saying that Ugin's +2 hits just as hard, and Silumgar doesn't die to Downfall. I'm comparing the two cards as more equal than Silumgar might be given credit for in this shell, not contrasting the two. They're both relevant and I think that there may be room for both of these cards in the main.

This week my record was odd, going to time in game three of both of my first two rounds (Abzan midrange and G/W Devotion), and then winning my last two rounds (Mardu Aggro and R/W Aggro) for a 2-0-2 record and good enough for fifth place and technically undefeated. This deck has only consistently built confidence and I continue to greatly enjoy playing it week after week and honing my abilities with it. At no time do I ever feel completely overwhelmed or scared of any given card. Opposing strategies are forced to play around what I may potentially be able to do, and in a shell that is control (but only mostly posing as such to fuel a massive Villainous Wealth), I definitely feel that this is one of the most powerful decks out there.

One of my coworkers took a look at the deck following FNM and suggested looking at going a more controlling route by cutting Sylvan Caryatid and Courser of Kruphix completely and going with Thoughtseize in the main and more counterspells and potentially a 26th land to make it more full-on control. My first thoughts are that I don't necessarily agree with the suggestion since this deck isn't meant to be a Gerard Fabiano-style deck in the first place, but I thought I'd pose the idea here to see what consideration you have put toward going in that kind of direction. My feelings are that the Caryatid/Courser package really helps stave off an aggro matchup that we might otherwise be dead to rights against without specific removal in hand, but I'm open to listening to other perspectives.

Once again, thank you so much for this deck. I haven't had this much fun since running Battle of Wits in M14 Standard.

Just had a match with abzan midrange and won 2-0 first match wiped the board got ashiok out and protected her then hit a Whisperwood Elemental gotta say i won this game on its back. almost every card it manifested was either land or something insignificant. it made my opponent have to choose whether to downfall the ashiok or whisper lol was super funny stole a death dealer with ashiok and then he downfalled my whisper after i had 3 2/2's his life was at 11 he had no blockers so i swung for 12 after pumping death dealer 2x.

2nd round got on ashiok and kiora's back. wiped the board and kept it clear while ashiok and kiora ticked up. he asked me am i just gonna mill him out and i told him no kiora will krakify him soon lol. kiora kracked n here came the onslaught bc right after i hit whisper wood again ashiok dropped a rhino and next turn swung lethal so he conceded.

Overall i feel confident in my build now going straight control really made it a better focused deck. i think if i go back to VW i will have to add Dictate of Karametra as a 2x too better focus my build.

Hey sync and aezuriel appreciate the responses heres my thinking

Sync,

In my suggestion is that the whisper wasn't for me in the fact that it is more widely handled in the since that it can be dispatched as a one for one rather than a two for one from other decks who find it hard to run up on a ashiok or garukk with a creature and finish him with a spell. Only exceptions are kiora and courser and luck. I tested against it and felt it would not do so well for my deck which was up until the update similar to loco. Reasoning was also that it can become a henderence for my deck, whereas it would be subtracting needful spells to control the board. In testing against it in recent veriations from the top 8 in miami 5k premier(G/W, Whip, R/G, and so forth last week) it proved helpful in beating the opponent by letting it live as long as possible taking out a players options to rebutal my spells adding to the bond fire ashiok and vw would would be cooking up. We play very different styles where you go more BUG and I go more vw so no offense, I just think that it would not be in the best interest of this deck. Subtracting player wincons and vw's for 2/2 creatures. Thats just my opinion towards it for a wealth deck.

This leads me to Aezuriel

Aezuriel

I actually agree with you on your response. However I also believe in three goals a deck should have for being a solid build (not that loco has to read all this) versatility, consistency, and synergy. It is a probability game after all, but due to the three goals i just stated can increase the odds of pulling what a player needs to stabilize. Im sure we have all seen or been in a position where we are at one life keeping a bad muligan, drawing bad cards, and even running crappy play errors, and have stablized at one long enough to tip the edge where one of the three goals gets the other two going and possibly win a game.
Yes agreed you cant be prepared for every deck in the format and never will, for that very reason I like this deck because if it can't win by its own means then it takes the opponents.
Otherwise I would just be playing another abzan variant, or a brew that could do what i need. I like the update before this one for myself because I felt it was getting closer to the three goals i stated above, and I also added some additions i felt i needed in my meta that didn't hamper them. Check me out later on the "Attack of the Villans" deck I put up that is consistant to a 3-1, 3-2 at FNM's. For me when I'm playing against different decks and still getting the same results without play errors, it means tweaking the deck and continuing the probability of whats needed to push the deck into a 4-0 consistency. I digress, These are all my opinions of whats going on with locos deck. This is all in the preference to make his deck better as a fellow magic player. I'm not being blind to chance of losing or being hard on a good deck, just emphasized on making a solid deck that nobody aside from us who see the potential in a BUGGy wealth deck/ or card that everybody passes up when it comes to SCG toures. I talked to my friends that went to Dallas, they all say that what I tested against that friday (b/w,B/u, R/W, BUG, Mono red, G/W, R/G, and veriants) they saw that saturday and sunday. The wealth build I have could have possibly taken the SCG Dallas just because it had enough gear to answer the decks that were out there (from what they say). About 20 of my friends went. This was quite gratitifying seeing that this was orginally locos idea and some colaborative credit should come to him in hopes that these friendly reviews with drive him and us to further this deck to hopefully have fun and get us some money later on.

Thanks, CapitonMurfish, tell your friends that they're quite inspiring and I appreciate their feedback.

Aezuriel, insightful and I appreciate it as always. I feel like I was hoping for better things that past FNM and, with the 2-2 finish, was disappointed. That led to me doubting my deck. I've come to really respect the insight from a few of you here on this deck and sometimes I think I lean much too heavily on the insight and let it take over some of my own judgement. That's not a slight or complaint on you or anyone else here being helpful...more a slight on me to be able to filter the advice coming in, measure that against my personal meta at my FNM, and make the right choices.

I've really appreciated all the insight, the feedback, and the reports from the field from those running this deck or variations of it, and I love it all. I've come to really love this little personal inter-TappedOut community I've found. :) !!!

Speaking of inspiring, check out how many suitai deck made top 8 in dallas. Make me wish I would have went now.

I just looked it up today for curiousity

Like!

just gonna say #1 has almost the exact build i have lol. Now i see that its me that sucks not the deck lol.

I noticed that to when I looked at first place.