Let 'em Die [Primer: Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker]
Commander / EDH*
SCORE: 41 | 84 COMMENTS | 19281 VIEWS | IN 21 FOLDERS
SmokeyBear15 says... #2
I do want to note that whichever tutor(s) you want to include, you should always always always search for some form of protection for Shirei before anything else. That's why Shred Memory works just fine for me; it fetches Lightning Greaves, Mask of Avacyn, and Dark Privilege which is enough safety net to let me open up the throttle on my fragile reanimator engine.
August 2, 2016 2:39 p.m.
SmokeyBear15 says... #3
Recent changes:
Junk Diver -> Myr Retriever. 2 CMC works better with a T1 Sol Ring and Ashnod's Altar makes enough for him. I'm considering putting both in here somehow to produce an infinite death loop with these two, the Altar, and Pawn of Ulamog. Hmmm...
Brain Maggot -> Mesmeric Fiend. Strict upgrade. I hate it when people kill off the maggot and get their card back, especially if its an instant that they use before it returns at EOT.
Ravenous Rats -> Noxious Toad. Hits all opponents.
Tectonic Edge -> Thespian's Stage. More valuable for me to copy my fancy lands.
August 3, 2016 3:15 p.m.
projectneptune says... #4
Nice, I'm a fan of the latest updates.
Thoughts on Mind Slash vs Nezumi Bone-Reader?
Nezumi has a weaker effect, but it's also possible to get it back on the battlefield with all the recursion tools. Mind slash offers way more control but is a one-and-done kind of deal once it gets blown up.
And if you'll be missing the hand scouting ability that Mind Slash gives, consider Disciple of Phenax in place of Black Cat.
August 3, 2016 8:31 p.m.
projectneptune says... #6
Also also,
Soldevi Adnate is strictly better than Basal Thrull, yes? It can sac itself for just like Basal Thrull, but it can also sac a high CMC creature for a more explosive play OR any creature that needs to hit the GY in a pinch.
August 3, 2016 9:55 p.m.
SmokeyBear15 says... #7
Nezumi Bone-Reader and Disciple of Phenax are both great. Neither of them is quite an exact creature-version of Mind Slash though. I like that the Nezumi can sac itself to its own effect, but I don't get to choose what they discard. And the disciple is nice too but it isn't a sac outlet (and just a tad expensive mana wise).
I think I've gone with Mind Slash because even if my board state isn't super hot, I can use it to remove the greatest threat from their hand (usually removal they could use on Shirei), and prepare for the rest of their hand. If I have enough creatures on board, then the Nezumi Bone-Reader is better, but early on when I'm not as established yet.... It's a hard choice between those three. And I really like Black Cat. The death trigger on it means I can sac it after their draw step before they have a chance to use the card they just top decked. So I prefer that over ETB discard effects.
I feel like discard effects get you some nasty looks and some unwanted attention in multi-player. So maybe the Nezumi would be better. Hmm.
Golgari Thug is alright. I think I do okay with the recursion guys I have already. If it returned the card to hand I'd be all over it.
Good point on the Soldevi Adnate. You're entirely right. I'm not sure why I didn't see it that way before.
August 4, 2016 11:17 a.m.
SomeDipshit says... #8
Soldevi Adnate also doesn't cost 2 , so you can cast it t1, rather than t2 at the earliest.
August 4, 2016 12:26 p.m.
SmokeyBear15 says... #10
I don't think I'm interested in Bloodthrone Vampire, quite frankly.
And I'm unsure how I'd cast Soldevi Adnate on T1 with what I have currently.
August 4, 2016 12:44 p.m.
SomeDipshit says... #11
you can, point being that freeing up available in the early game is a benefit.
You aren't interested in an instant speed, free, recurrable sacrifice outlet?
August 4, 2016 1:38 p.m.
SmokeyBear15 says... #12
It isn't reusable if it boosts its own power. Which it does. I almost never win by dealing damage via combat. When I do, it's usually with my flying things like my scavenger Drake or my demon tokens or I wiped the board very efficiently with my gravepact type effects. If the vampire had trampled or any kind of evasion then maybe I'd consider it. I haven't noticed myself lacking for more sacrifice Outlets honestly.
( sorry, I'm voice texting on mobile)
August 4, 2016 1:44 p.m.
SomeDipshit says... #13
. . .
You sacrifice itself to its own ability in response to prior activations. That's like, the whole idea.
August 4, 2016 1:49 p.m.
SmokeyBear15 says... #14
So then it's a sac outlet that doesn't do anything for me, other than be a sac outlet. You're right that that scenario would work, I'm just not seeing space for a sac outlet that does nothing else.
August 4, 2016 2:29 p.m.
SomeDipshit says... #15
The sac outlet does do something for the deck -- namely, providing a recurrable, cost free means to sacrifice your creatures every turn. Altars can die to Krosan Grip pretty easily, but once vampire is out with a protected shirei, there is no getting rid of it. Just use it as a worse Viscera Seer.
August 5, 2016 1:30 p.m.
SmokeyBear15 says... #16
Like, I get the concept of a creature-based free sac outlet. I'm familiar with how that works. I'm just convinced I could find a free outlet that does something. Corpse Blockade at least contributes to the pillow fort theme as an effective blocker.....
August 5, 2016 1:42 p.m.
projectneptune says... #17
I see what you're saying now, Illumfolly. You're saying sac creatures up to and including Bloodthrone Vampire before the +2/+2 effects fall off the stack, which would allow Bloodthrone Vampire to return to play via Shirei.
I'll have to consider it with my deck knowing that, but the issue I have with it is the effect of the sac give us nothing. Phyrexian Plaguelord is cost-free and semi-recurrable, with a much more useful effect. Nezumi Bone-Reader is recurrable and has a useful effect (albeit only your turn).
August 5, 2016 2:39 p.m.
SomeDipshit says... #18
Phyrexian Plaguelord is not nearly as recurrable -- but is a great removal engine once you have effectively almost won the game. It also costs 5. It's only really comparable because it self sacrifices (with some effort). Even then, disruption forces you to put your resources into saving the plaguelord, whereas you could be using those sacrificed creatures for other things.
Nezumi Bone-Reader is not comparable -- and I don't run it -- rather, I run creatures that force discard on every turn, but that need to die or enter the battlefield to do so -- Disciple of Phenax, Mesmeric Fiend, Black Cat, Noxious Toad, Corrupt Court Official. This is 2-4 times more triggers compared to sorcery speed. That's not even to mention that you need a ton of Black mana to use Nezumi, which isn't viable at all under resource denial. Run Sadistic Hypnotist before him. It's not nothing, it's an engine piece that is redundant with Viscera Seer, hard to remove, and cheap to play. It's not vital and doesn't need to be -- quintessential INUS condition for establishing an insurmountable board state. The faster you can get rolling, the better (and more redundant pieces = faster).
You could do the same thing on non-active turns with corpse blockade (one of the few free creature sac outlets). The only distinct disadvantage is that is costs 1 more, and the only distinct advantage is that you have a deathtouch blocker on non-active turns. The cost is a big deal for me, since my games are necessarily heavy in resource denial tactics. The blocking is less important for me because I both have plenty of ways to kill creatures and rarely face aggro or voltron strategies that are not well controlled with resource denial. I guess it's a matter of preference here, but for me, it's the active turn that makes the difference. So, you get to sacrifice all your creatures on every turn that is not yours and thus sweep away possible blockers with Attrition, Grave Pact, Big Game Hunter, Bone Shredder, and Abyssal Gatekeeper, amongst other means. Now, at least one of your opponents has an empty board and you have 5 - 10 creatures to sacrifice (or more) -- all of which you can pump into vampire (for real this time) and attack for 10 - 20 damage. This is a clean finisher for grinding games (i.e. my games). In order to blow up the vampire, they would have had to hold onto removal that would otherwise have been directed at some far more threatening card.
August 5, 2016 7:44 p.m.
projectneptune says... #19
I agree with your analysis, Illumfolly. Discard effects attached to ETB/LTB triggers combined with free sac outlets sounds like the way to go. My problem is I'm trying to find the right balance to make it enjoyable for semi-casual EDH games, so I don't run nearly the amount of discard effects as you do.
August 8, 2016 12:28 p.m.
SomeDipshit says... #20
yeah that's always a problem. Make the deck too tryhard and you'll just get blown out of the water by a better commander or sideboarded hate (Rest in Peace). My deck just kindof leans into this, so that when I get blown out of the water, I don't feel bad about it. "Yep, good call killing me".
A less effective but powerful approach is to just run one or two of the power discard cards that are semi-OP with shirei. Perfect cards for that are Sadistic Hypnotist and Mindslicer.
August 8, 2016 7:22 p.m.
SmokeyBear15 says... #21
Yeah, discard effects that can be repeatedly used every turn are great and very powerful with Shirei. However. In multiplayer, they make you a lot of enemies and they don't help you deal with superior board states. I run a lot more discard in my 1v1/Duel Commander version: Let 'em Die 1v1 (which needs some updating). But in multiplayer, I aim to be less of a "no fun allowed" player, lol.
August 8, 2016 9:14 p.m.
SmokeyBear15 says... #22
Okay. So far with Kaladesh... I wrote this elsewhere about Aetherworks Marvel: "I think Aetherworks Marvel could be a nice addition. Shirei can definitely get enough energy for it to be used every turn. My only problem is this: it taps. Thus, you can only use it once a turn, instead of on each of your opponents turns. Since Shirei is typically full of small cheap creatures, cheating one out for free isn't as big of a deal as it is in other decks. It's definitely nice though, just maybe not as impactful here as in, say, Meren."
But here's a beauty that shub pointed out to me: Weaponcraft Enthusiast. It's a 3-drop 0-powered creature that gives us two 1/1 tokens when it ETB's. Shirei likes this guy a lot. I have no idea if he'll push somebody else out of the deck, but it could definitely be a good addition. Makes me think of Marsh Flitter, without flying or the ability to sac it's own tokens.
September 14, 2016 6:50 p.m.
SmokeyBear15 says... #23
Weaponcraft Enthusiast and Marionette Master both seem like excellent additions here. Highly considering putting them in.
September 28, 2016 9:29 a.m.
I pre-ordered them. Master has a built in alpha strike.
September 28, 2016 1:01 p.m.
SmokeyBear15 says... #25
I'm not sure who or what I want to take out though. I'm thinking Falkenrath Noble and maybe Black Market? I know I know, Black Market is really good for mana, BUT, it's kind of a win-more card, in that if I can really take advantage of it, I'm already doing really well? I have a lot of other mana ramping stuff, and it's always a huge target that usually gets taken care of really quick in multiplayer. I've also thought about taking out Gray Merchant of Asphodel and I'm pretty sure I've already taken out Ogre Slumlord in my actual paper deck. What are your thoughts, shub?
SmokeyBear15 says... #1
You're right that it would be a strict upgrade. The only real reason why I've chosen Shred Memory instead is the $0.25 price made it easier for me to trade for. If I ever get a Beseech the Queen I'll swap it in.
Scourge of Nel Toth is fun. I like it a lot, cuz I'm a fan of dragons. The only problems I have are these: It's expensive and I can't cast it from graveyard unless I get it into graveyard first. If I put it in, I have to take something else out, which is probably something else that supports deck synergy better. I like Skirsdag High Priest and Westvale Abbey Flip for my big flyers here.
Do I need both Eldrazi token makers? Nah. Do I want them both? Hell yeah. They not only make mana for ramping with (can help for casting Shirei, if need be), they also sacrifice themselves, which combos so well with Dictate of Erebos etc. Honestly, I'd take out Ogre Slumlord well before I considered taking out Pawn of Ulamog or Sifter of Skulls. (But if you wanna force me to choose, I like the Pawn better, because CMC 3 and a 2/2 is easy to recur with a -1/-1 counter).
I am constantly torn on Junk Diver vs. Myr Retriever. The Myr allows for T1 swamp -> sol ring -> myr, which is a nice set up. I'm just low on flyers, and reusable chump blocker flyers are, well, useful. Little myr buddy does me no good when [insert literally any dragon or angel here] hits the field. Feels bad, man. But I could be persuaded....
I do like Bottle Gnomes, and it was in the original build here. I find Deathgreeter to be better at the job. Oh and obviously the Blood Artist trio and the Gray Merchant of Asphodel that I'm currently testing out.
August 2, 2016 2:32 p.m.