considering adding mill and playing with opponents' cards as a win con... Sepulchral Primordial -ish and Diluvian Primordial -ish effects. I know those cards such in practically any other format of course... perhaps a Lazav, Dimir Mastermind ?

I think you could use a Phyrexian Unlife

Absorb and Punish Ignorance seem very interesting with Lich

YUP!... thanks lil_cheez those are just the suggestions I need...

RogueArtificer they would indeed. I'm trying to figure out what I can cut just as much as what I can add. I know the deck pretty much has no counterspells atm... which makes me sad since I likes counters. I'm planning on adding some as soon as I figure out what I can take out.

Maybe I was a little reckless for suggesting Phyrexian Unlife. It prevents you from losing the game for having 0 or less life, but if you take 10 more damage, then you die by infect... Lich prevents losing for having 0 life, but don't prevent Poison Counters ):

@lil_cheez yeah, when I first saw it I was thinking maybe it would be something I throw in to save me if someone kills Lich while i'm at 0 life. But upon consideration, I didn't actually put it in for the reason you stated. Besides, my main concern about lich should it be targeted or destroyed should be to get him into my hand or exiled and not the graveyard and, rather, focus on gaining life while he's out to avoid losing by having 0 life.

As another note about this deck. I realize that many of the enchantments make the deck seem that its too much "zur" and not enough "lich". I'm thinking of creating a little more defense, counters, and, perhaps, mill?

I actually think that mill isn't enjoyable in Commander because you'll be fighting against 99 cards libraries... except, of course, in the case you're using creatures that get bigger with full graves, like Consuming Aberration and Wight of Precinct Six for example. In this case, I'd recommend Traumatize because it doesn't care for the size of the library and would mill a huge amount of cards, wich would make this creatures real monsters.

As for some defense, there are great walls in blue and white, like Fog Bank , Angelic Wall , Guard Gomazoa and so on :)

Guard Gomazoa sounds perfect... especially with Pariah which is already in the deck...

Why Erebos? You can't pay the 2 life after you are in the negatives.

I'm making an Oloro-Lich EDH, so I'mma plunder some of the best stuff. Is it alright if I credit you?

Also, what is the point of Avatar of Hope ? A multi-blocking two cost 4/9? I mean if it becomes indestructible, then great, but it doesn't have vigilance...

Also, would you incorporate or shy away from lifelink+deathtouch? Ergo Wurmcoil Engine /Basilisk Collar .

Would a Sun Titan recursion engine (in addition to eldrazi reshuffling) be powerful enough to warrant an inclusion? He can bring back lands in a similar fashion to Crucible of Worlds , becomes an infinite turn combo with Second Chance , can save Death's Shadow /Children of Korlis , and most other enchantments and artifacts (like Greater Auramancy ) are three cmc or below. Good enough?

What would be some blue cards I could include in the Oloro deck?

Would you consider the inclusion of Exquisite Blood ?

Mechanically, pretty sound.

Flavorfully? You are this immortal dead thing who exchanges life force for knowledge, when you are injured, your creations suffer and when your phylactery is broken, you die a horrid death. Stealing the life and knowledge of your injured enemies? Priceless.

I'm in a big training thing today for work right now, so I'll have a better response later tonight. But please take any ideas you want, and I appreciate the credit.

Off the top of my head, Illusions of Grandeur is an easy pick (pay 4, draw 20, don't bother with the upkeep cost). Also, Dromar's Charm and Absorb seem like the right counters to have.

Sun Titan is BOSS. My BW version stopped having as many vital 3cmc permanents so I dropped him.

Avatar of Hope is not essential. It is just pretty fancy to have a 4/9 flier for 2 in a more "aggressive" lich deck. The blocking ability has helped stall a lot in past games I've played by keeping people from attacking easily, even w/o the indestructable (but Darksteel Plate is fun on him). Before Lich, It disrupts them, and gives me time to set up. After Lich, it helps if I don't have damage prevention yet like Delaying Shield . I like him so far, but you are right he's not essential. Can easily be dropped for something else in a BUW version.

Lifelink used to play a major part of the deck, but I found that things got out of control for me. If I didn't have Penance on the board then I drew myself out. suddenly I can't block with Death's Shadow because he would deal too much damage. Ulamog is so helpful in this regard.

anyway, I'll say more tonight.

oh, about Erebos, i'm currently testing him out. I used to run Necropotence in here, to help me get to lich. however, after i played lich, he became the worst thing to have. Not only can I not pay life, but I couldn't replenish my library from my graveyard because I couldn't discard (which was why I ran Library of Leng instead of Spellbook with necropotence). So I dropped necropotence. But when Erebos came out, I decided to try him. He's a lot like Greed , but with lich he has enough devotion to be a 5/7 indestructible. So before Lich, he is a draw engine to find Lich. Afterwards, he is just a beatstick, since you can't pay life. Also, in theory, if you already have your enchantments on the board, then its nice to use Academy Rector or Enlightened Tutor or something to search for an indestructible enchantment-creature.

So... as I said... I'm "testing"

I was sick from school today, and so finished the preliminary decklist.

Reconstructing this version of the deck to be a BUW version again. The version I have in reality is The Lich. This one exists only in merry christmas land, and is under construction again. It is an experimental version, including the blue awesomeness.

Am I giving you all of teh ideas, You who gave me all of teh ideas before i had all of teh ideas, and then you is having all of teh moar ideas and they is vomiting into a decklist?

I enjoy Hanna.

You have one too many cards.

Haha. I swear I haven't taken all of your ideas. All the cards in here used to be in here anyway, back when it had blue. Only new one is Sphinx Revelation.

I know I have too many cards here. I've been focusing on my BW version the lastcoulple of weeks so this has just been a casual think-tank lately.... I'll fix it up soonish. :)

Going 5c will tax the mana base like nothing else, so by going 5c, you have effectively limited yourself to only playing Lich via S&T, Dream Halls, and Eureka, at least until mid-lategame, considering you are only running 6 fetches.

Commandeer is almost never going to be cast for free when you need it, plus whatever you pitch will be most likely better than whatever you are possessing. -2 CA isn't worth it. Neither is Disrupting Shoal . Just run Counterspell . Cryptic Command is too taxing to the mana base.

Run Skyshroud Claim over Gaea's Balance . It ramps, fixes, and costs 2 mana instead of killing off some stuff to get other stuff and uses 4 mana. Over the long game, you may run out of forests to find, but then you zuran orb > wheel and tutor them all over again.

Gamble ?

It looks like you are exchanging consistency and protection for WOW factor and chaotic games. People are gonna start SBing Blightsteels and Storm Crows to 'answer' your S&Ts. .

You need to figure how to slow your opponents and speed up your own wincon. I have found that discard/neutering tutors(aven mindcensor)/counter protection helps.

YerpyMoose yes! the mana base will need some doctoring when I get around to it for sure. When I can afford them, I'd like to own all 10 fetches... If only dual lands were more affordable.

I agree 100% with your hard suggestions. Gamble would be pretty fun... But I feel the same about it as your commandeer opinion.

Overall, this is more of a brainstorm than a hard deck list, and more of a challenge to myself to see if I can make 5c Lich work. I haven't looked back at this thing in like a month! At which point I just threw a bunch of stuff in there. My real life deck remains as The Lich with only 2 colors.

I like the slow effects idea you had... Tangle Wire maybe? Mana Web ? Even Stasis ?Thanks for your input as always. :)