Liquidbeaver says... #2
Jimmy_Chinchila: Thanks! It definitely surprised me with how strong it is, when I expected it to be one of my casual-only decks. I have an easier time winning with this deck than I do my Doran deck, which I regularly take to FNM and do well with.
October 31, 2018 4:02 p.m.
Pheardemons says... #3
I like the idea of this deck. I wanted to give some input based on the update you posted. I think another win condition for you to consider is the new Ral, Izzet Viceroy. His ultimate is absolutely game ending, however is 5 CMC might be just out of reach with only 18 lands in the deck. He's powerful in his own right and something I think you should consider.
As for the Search for Azcanta Flip comment, people swear by it because they are probably playing a more controlling shell than you are. Those are the types of decks that benefit more from the library manipulation. You mentioned that it is too slow. I assume that means you are trying to automatically flip it as fast as possible. If you think about never flipping it, it is constant library manipulation that allows you to dump unwanted or unnecessary cards to try and get to the ones you want faster. Most of the decks I've played against don't flip it until they draw a second one.
You mentioned adding a Chandra, Torch of Defiance. I also agree that would be beneficial. She's just so powerful that she gets out of hand quickly. Potentially adding her and Ral, Izzet Viceroy would be a decent way of finishing the game.
November 1, 2018 3:50 p.m.
Liquidbeaver says... #4
Pheardemons: Thanks for the comment!
I really like the idea of Ral, Izzet Viceroy as well, and he's been hanging out in my maybeboard for a while because I couldn't shake the feeling that it would work well. Initially I was put off of playing it by having a ton of people telling me an 18 land deck can't support a 5 drop. They said the same thing about Crackling Drake as well. I think a really important detail is that all of my control is at 2 CMC (outside of Blood Moon), and since it is a quasi-control deck and does a good job of stalling, casting a 4 or 5 drop on curve isn't important. Even at 18 lands I frequently have games where I get 10 or more of them out by the end of the game.
I think something like Ral, Izzet Viceroy as a one-of is definitely castable most games, whereas a Cryptic Command hasn't worked because it's a CMC constraint tied to a heavy manatype constraint as well. I've been able to cast a Keranos, God of Storms regularly enough that I think just swapping that out for Ral would be a better finisher.
Thank you for the insight into Search for Azcanta Flip, that definitely helps explain why some people can run so few but still feel it merits the include. I was definitely trying to flip it as fast as possible, when in reality I would have probably gotten more benefit out of almost never flipping it (when I ran one).
I think between Chandra, Torch of Defiance and Ral, Ral offers better abilities that the deck is lacking in, and the slightly high starting loyalty means he doesn't get cheesed away as easily. I think he ties in much better with Mission Briefing and Crackling Drake.
I'm going to playtest with him in the Vendilion Clique MB spot, as I've been wanting to get Clique into the SB instead, but I couldn't justify losing a threat to do so.
November 1, 2018 4:25 p.m.
Pheardemons says... #5
I don't think you should switch a Keranos, God of Storms for Ral, Izzet Viceroy. Keranos is an indestructible enchantment that is almost impossible to remove in the competitive modern meta. I didn't see a Keranos in your list so I did not realize you were playing it. Honestly, I'd take out both Crackling Drakes for both of the planeswalkers and/or Keranos. By not having creatures, you are leaving creature removal (Fatal Push, Dismember, Path to Exile, ect) completely irrelevant and dead cards. Something that might be interesting to consider is to put creatures in the sideboard, and game two, when they switch out their creature removal, is to bring in creatures. I'd personally say something like Goblin Rabblemaster or something of that nature that puts more pressure and bodies. However, that is a personal preference.
November 1, 2018 5:15 p.m.
Liquidbeaver says... #6
Pheardemons: I only added it as a 1-of in the SB, and only just today in preparation for some playtests tonight.
I would love to do a very limited creature base (even less than I have now), but against aggro, burn, and prowess decks I just felt helpless, like I was throwing away Game 1, rather than it just being hard. Now that may just be a symptom of not enough removal, or wincons not coming out soon enough, but I wasn't sure how to solve it.
I like the idea of most of my creatures being in the sideboard, and bringing them in when the opponent sides out removal. I could probably move Spellskite to the side, but I'm not sure how I feel about TiTi being there too. If I did that, what number of planeswalkers and other interaction do you think I should try? 1 Ral, 1 Keranos, 2 Unsubstantiate in the MB?
Do you think the fact that I could almost never have enough devotion to turn Keranos into a creature would be a problem?
November 1, 2018 7:14 p.m.
Pheardemons says... #7
Do not worry about not turning Keranos, God of Storms. That actually makes him vulnerable to Path to Exile or Condemn if he's attacking. Don't get me wrong, if you can cool, but don't make it a point. I'd actually say one Keranos, God of Storms, one Chandra, Torch of Defiance, and one Ral, Izzet Viceroy as the actual win conditions. Every other card is a way to stall the game or protect them. You could also look into Jaya Ballard so that if you play against someone else that is able to stall the game (most likely another control player) you could try to hit Jaya Ballard's ultimate to win the game through, essentially, flashing back burn spells. Wandering Fumarole could be another potential win condition. Blood Moon turns it off unfortunately, but an option nonetheless.
Against decks that are aggressive, they just tend to be the bane of control decks because they are too quick and get underneath the control decks before they can stabilize. I'd actually say that, instead of creatures, your sideboard should be more tuned to the meta. Creatures is a cool thing, but is cute. Spellskite is good because it can be used to protect your planeswalkers from targeted removal. Other than that, I'd say to take out the Electrostatic Fields and Phyrexian Metamorph (why is it in there?) to put in more universal cards to fight against other decks. I'd also switch out the Unsubstantiates for something more universal like more Echoing Truths or Repeal. If you do decide to go this kind of control route, Leyline of Sanctity is going to cause you problems, so you'll want to ensure that you can bounce it then counter it.
November 1, 2018 11:14 p.m.
Liquidbeaver says... #8
Pheardemons: I'm not too attached to the Crackling Drakes, they are just the best finisher I found so far. They definitely have all the drawbacks of a creature based wincon. I think it would be easy to drop them for a Keranos and Ral. Still not sure how I feel about the strength of Chandra. I think if I had more burn spells it would be a lot better. I get the feeling that Jace would be a better use of that one slot than Chandra would. I agree with Fumarole being a possible include, especially now that I got rid of the Field of Ruins.
The metamorph is there because it felt like an interesting use of a clone spell, since it becomes "clone target permanent" if Coating is out, but also still works if it isn't. Copying a Lili or Teferi or even an Emrakul is awesome, but it has been too clunky to actually use, especially when I want the deck to be competitive.
November 2, 2018 12:41 p.m.
Pheardemons says... #9
Chandra's uptick is more useful when a deck isn't reactionary. I'm sure flipping over a counterspell does feel bad. I understand that skepticism. However, in saying that, her emblem is monstrous. Easily something that finishes games. Jace, the Mind Sculptor does seem to fit this play style a lot better. I understand using him instead.
That is an interesting thought with the Phyrexian Metamorph, but also something that does seem clunky and cute. That spot would be better to stop other decks, rather than simply copying their win condition.
The suggestions I would have are:
Mainboard
-2 Crackling Drake, -3 Thing in the Ice Flip, -2 Spellskite, -1 Shrapnel Blast, -1 Mission Briefing
+1 Keranos, God of Storms, +1 Ral, Izzet Viceroy, +1 Jaya Ballard, +1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, +2 Wandering Fumarole, +3 Anger of the Gods (or Sweltering Suns)
The reason I am taking out the Spellskites is that against a deck that doesn't attack much or is combo, this card is dead. It only has 0 power which means it cannot attack. Shrapnel Blast I'm assuming is there to try and get the last bit of damage through, but you don't really want to be sacrificing your artifacts, or whatever other permanent you'll have with Liquimetal Coating. I get the combo with sacrificing lands late game with Isochron Scepter imprinting it, but that's a fragile combo and you'll probably want something more concrete. For these my thought process was to add in board wipes to help you against those aggressive matchups, of which you have Anger of the Gods. I suggested Sweltering Suns so that in a matchup that they aren't needed, you have a cycle. Your choice.
I know your hesitation with adding more lands, but 18 seems pretty low for a deck that may now have potentially 3 cards at 5 mana, as well as wanting to cast multiple spells a turn, if necessary. I only added in the two, and I felt with the benefit of the planeswalkers and Keranos they can help you draw through the rare pocket of lands.
Sideboard: I'm just going to create a sideboard for you as a template, then you can curtail it to what you need for your meta.
2x Damping Sphere 2x Echoing Truth 2x Negate 2x Blood Moon 2x Shattering Spree 3x Grafdigger's Cage 2x Sorcerous Spyglass
Damping Sphere is a two-for-one against storm and tron. For storm, your stall tactics don't really affect them. You have a couple counters, but Remand only stops them for a turn, and they can usually pay for Mana Leak once they start. Your creature destruction also helps, but they can also do it naturally. This is that little bit extra to stop them after game 1.
Echoing Truth is a catch-all. It is really good against tokens, enchantments (that you can't deal with once they land cough cough Leyline of Sanctity), ect. It can be brought in against anything and every, and imprinting it with Isochron Scepter I'm sure will feel amazing.
Blood Moon is helpful against multi-color decks as well as an extra boost against tron. I'm not sure how bad that matchup is for you, but it couldn't hurt. Decks that don't see the mainboard Blood Moon may not fetch correctly game two, and therefore you may have the advantage of stopping their colors.
Grafdigger's Cage is another almost catch-all in the sense that it stops storm, hurts Snapcaster Mage, dredge no longer means anything (and it is on the rise), and any other graveyard shenanigans. Warning, this stops Mission Briefing, so you may want to side that out if you need the Grafdigger's Cage.
Sorcerous Spyglass is a great card to stop planeswalkers (if they land) as well as other cards that may become a hassle. The looking at your opponent's hand is also very good in being able to plan your next couple of moves.
Negate is a better hard counter against decks when Mana Leak or Remand won't cut it. Or, just extra counters if needed.
This sideboard is just a frame for you to mess around with. I don't play this kind of control so I used my knowledge of the meta, as well as when I've seen other people do, to make it. Hopefully it's at least adequate.
November 2, 2018 1:34 p.m.
Liquidbeaver says... #11
Pheardemons: I like a lot of your suggestions, but I am going to try switching stuff little by little, because I think a mix of cards I am running and cards you are suggesting will be the right middleground.
Because of Liquimetal and Scepter the deck plays at a weird pace. If I go too far towards one end end of the spectrum where I have no creatures I need harder control to make up for not having blockers/attackers, and the deck relies even more on the few wincons to stick.
If I go more aggro, then the control becomes weaker and the Coating/Scepter become huge liabilities instead of little ones. So far, a good mix of threats that must be answered has worked out best, even if it messes with the raw tempo of the deck to do it.
Having 0 power is a valid criticism of Spellskite, but I think it needs to stay in the 75 for a few reasons. It can protect my few artifacts, it can redirect burn aimed at me or a planeswalker (one of my hardest matchups), it can soak up auras and pump spells that opponents cast, it doesn't get bounced by TiTi flipping, and it chump blocks a huge majority of the creatures in the format without dying. I would be okay with it being in the SB for the exact reasons you said though, if I play a deck that has no interaction or combos off, it is a dead card.
Thing in the Ice Flip I think is something vital to the deck. Being able to chump until it flips, and then getting rid of all other creatures on the battlefield, killing all the tokens, and getting around indestructible and hexproof is huge. Quite a few times I've won games against Humans and Stompy purely on TiTi, Bolts, and a counterspell or two. The fact that it flips so steadily while I am just do my thing and interact is a huge benefit. I think I could easily operate on a creaturebase of just TiTi and Spellskite (or Young Pyromancer) in the MB, and if they bring in more creature removal just for that, they are playing to the impact of just 5 of my cards, which aren't my only wincons if I add Keranos/Ral/Jace, they are just secondary ones.
Shrapnel Blast was an addition to act as more of a mainboard Roast, but with the potential for a lot more reach. It also helps quite a bit to limit the drawbacks of running Coating/Scepter, as they can both have a huge impact if I draw supplemental spells at a good time, or they can be terrible if I don't. Since I don't run Faithless Looting or anything besides Mission Briefing/Izzet Charmto pitch those away, I wanted to get more use out of them. Even just adding 1 to the mainboard did a lot for limiting the liability of running Coating and Scepter. Since I'm not willing to remove those two cards, I wanted to make sure I always had something to do with them. MB Spellskite also helps to reduce the negative aspect of those pet cards, as blocking with a Spellskite in an instance where it would die, then saccing to Blast at either a */5 creature, or sending 5 at a player/planeswalker can be huge.
Mission Briefing going down to 3x is probably something worth doing regardless. As cool as it is to Scry a bit, and then recast something from my GY, there are a number of times I drew into multiples where I rather have just had interaction in my hand. 2x would probably be too few since I don't run Snapcaster Mage, but I think 3 may be just right.
Thanks for suggesting Sweltering Suns, I didn't know about that card. I am going to pay attention to how often the exile clause on Anger of the Gods would actually matter (Finks, Dredge?). Right away I think 2x Anger/1x Sweltering would have no negative impact on me, and I can spend some time seeing if I want to switch to the full 3x Sweltering.
I ran different combinations of Blood Moon for a while, and 3 total always felt great, where 4 total felt like I was always drawing multiples, or I would have 2x in the side and never want to bring in more than 1. I think an extra 1 in the SB, in conjunction with some Damping Sphere like you suggested, would be a great way of covering all my bases without overcommitting.
I think I've been thinking of my MB bounce and SB bounce in the wrong way. I want to be able to have the most impact, and hit the highest number of things with my MB spells, and use the SB to refine it if needed. 2x Echoing Truth in the MB, and having 1-2 Expel from Orazca/Boomerangin the SB would be a much better way of making sure my Game 1 potential is highest. Expel/Boomerang in the MB isn't as effective in games where I don't know if I will even land 10 permanents, or if I need to be worried about multiples of permanents coming out.
How do you think Grafdigger's Cage compares to Relic of Progenitus/Tormod's Crypt? Those two were my first thoughts when I was thinking of adding more Dredge and GY hate (besides wanting a second Surgical Extraction in the side), but I completely forgot about the Cage.
I've avoided cards like Pithing Needle for a long time because of my limited knowledge of what cards in other decks I should be worried about, and the sheer card pool that Modern has. I think Sorcerous Spyglass is a great alternative to that for me. I think that would also compliment having Clique as well, as I can choose which one to cast based on boardstate.
Negate is a great suggestion for the SB. I've had a number of games where I wanted to board out Remand against low CMC decks, or board out Mana Leak against big mana decks, but had nothing in the SB to switch it with. Getting it imprinted is also really cool, as it can protect me and itself on every turn.
Thanks again for your perspective on the deck and the general meta! It is very helpful early on in the deck creation like this.
November 2, 2018 4:12 p.m.
Pheardemons says... #12
The difference between Grafdigger's Cage and the ones you mentioned is the fact of consistency. Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus (aside from multiples) is the fact they blow up the graveyard as it is. Your opponents can then bait out the blow out and then plan around it. Grafdigger's Cage is consistent, and unless it is gotten rid of by your opponent it stops them completely. Still something they can potentially play around, but at least it HAS to be gotten rid of, where the others can be baited.
My top most rule in magic is to play with what you like. Whether or not it does well, or despite what others say. Obviously, playtest as much as possible. Whatever you come out as, good luck man.
November 2, 2018 4:19 p.m.
Liquidbeaver says... #13
I keep having this nagging feeling that I need a few more T1 plays. Are my only options Opt/Serum Visions in a deck like this?
November 8, 2018 5:50 p.m.
Pheardemons says... #14
I think they are. Unless you wanted to go a more proactive "prowess" route in which Monastery Swiftspear may come into play. Early damage in the form of Goblin Guide could be beneficial, but then you're closing in close to burn or some blue/red jank stuff (which you already kind of are). I'm not sure, but I would think Opts and Serum Visions is probably the best bet in a deck like this.
November 8, 2018 10:19 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #15
Dude, look at the more underrated of the cantrips... Sleight of Hand, it is like opt, except sorcery speed, and like Serum Visions, but you know what you are drawing, kind of a mix if you are on the fence about it.
November 9, 2018 8:39 a.m.
Liquidbeaver says... #16
Pheardemons I tried Prowess a few times before, and it always felt like it really needed a significant overhaul to do that ability justice. I wouldn't mind leaning a bit more into the burn aspect, but I agree I think a bit more topdeck manipulation is something I should add before I do anything else. I have virtually none as it is.
SynergyBuild Great suggestion, I am definitely going to add that to my playtests for tonight.
November 9, 2018 12:01 p.m.
Liquidbeaver says... #17
After playtesting I settled on Opt in place of 2x Electrolyze and 2x MB counterspells. While Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand worked great, being instant speed ended up being imperative for Thing in the Ice Flip and buffing Crackling Drake just a bit more during combat.
Dropped another Mission Briefing, and I'm liking it as a 2-of. The requirement can be detrimental in the very early game, and I think Briefing would just be better period if I had more burn spells. However, I don't think I will ever take it out, as I don't think Snapcaster Mage as a 2-of would be better in this case.
Switching to a more proactive build definitely helped the speed of the deck quite a bit, but it made the exact MB counterspells I chose much more important. Playtesting again on Friday, and going to switch the Mana Leaks out for Remands and try that again. Going to try to get a 4th in, but I'm not sure what to cut. Maybe the Unsubstantiate?
Ral, Izzet Viceroy as a 1-of in the MB, and Keranos, God of Storms as a 1-of in the side has been working well so far. For games where I need the big creature removal and a finisher I leave Ral in, when Ral gets removed too easily I switch him for Keranos, and in longer games I have both in the MB.
18-19 lands seems to be the sweet spot. I tried 20 and felt flooded almost every single game. This is a lot of the reason behind just the 2x Drake, and a 1-of Ral/Keranos at a time, because any more of them and they would be stranded in my hand. With the pace the deck forces the game to play at, casting Drakes around T6 and Ral/Keranos around 7 or 8 has worked just fine.
Wandering Fumarole got cut. If I had 22 lands or something ETBT would be fine, but not at 18-19.
November 13, 2018 3:35 p.m.
Liquidbeaver says... #18
Sideboard is looking much better. I'd still like to get some Damping Spheres in, and I miss my extra Shrapnel Blast, but overall I am very happy with it.
The Expel from Orazca is probably the weakest card left. I really like that if I imprint it it is hard control if I have 10 permanents, but needing to fulfill two steep requirements before it becomes "better" than Echoing Truth is probably just code for it needs to go next.
November 15, 2018 12:57 p.m.
Liquidbeaver says... #19
Gonna try testing a March of the Machines in the mainboard again. I think the deck is in a place where I can get the most possible use out of it without it being a detriment at a 1-of, and it will also sideboard out to a Ral/Keranos in most cases.
November 21, 2018 1:07 p.m.
TheNumbers says... #20
Hello, just a bit of fun have you considered trying Saheeli Rai and Altar of the Brood? its a combo with liquimetal coating, as it allows saheeli to target herself to be copied infinitely, triggering altar of the brood each time milling your opponent out
November 22, 2018 3:13 p.m.
Liquidbeaver says... #21
TheNumbers: That combo actually used to be in the mainboard, with Reckless Fireweaver as backup. Eventually it moved to the sideboard as a transformative gameplan, but I ended up taking it out completely when I started to run Isochron Scepter and changed the instants around.
I still think the combo is really fun, and still have all the pieces, so maybe if I can get the mainboard solid enough to run pretty well on it's own I can add it back to the sideboard.
November 28, 2018 11:48 a.m.
Liquidbeaver says... #22
Considering adding a 3-4x Manamorphose to the deck to get some more cantrips, and to flip Thing in the Ice Flip a bit faster.
Dropping some counterspells for Opt made the draws smoother, but I lost interaction and didn't gain any speed, making the deck durdle more than it used to.
November 28, 2018 4:54 p.m.
Liquidbeaver says... #23
Upped the land count, switched back to Remand, and going to playtest some Cryptic Commands to see how I like it.
November 29, 2018 11:35 a.m.
Liquidbeaver says... #24
Gonna experiment with an Arclight Phoenix version of the deck and see how I like it. I am happy with the core of my deck right now, but it just seems like 4-8 cards could be switched around to improve it significantly.
Jimmy_Chinchila says... #1
Really cool build, very unique and looks potent! +1
October 26, 2018 5:31 p.m.