That could work. We've done similar things in the past in which I've gathered up all of the commanders discussed in the previous few weeks and composed a short list of potential changes with my own opinions stapled on, then asked for feedback. A more formal system could certainly work. Perhaps once a week, I could make a post on here with said proposed movements, then voting/discussion would be open for one week. The changes would then be implemented and another round of potential revisions would be posted.

I'm just going to point out that tuned Patron is in no way a ramp deck, it's a combo deck with an instant-speed general. In fact, you can pull the combo itself off at instant speed, which is quite nice. Now obviously, mono-color and an expensive general hurts, but it's easily comparable with other decks in Tier 3. Here's a tuned list for an idea of how competitive he can be.

@NarejED

What's the best way to contact you? Never tried to message a tappedout user before.

Tappedout direct message is probably best. I can also be reached on Facebook if needed. Name: Jason Stinefield (Avatar is a crudely drawn picture of Niv-mizzet).

Another semi-lengthy "weigh-in" post. On the google doc, my opinion is that most of the commanders that need to be moved down should be moved down.

Arcanis: Basically a worse version of Azami. He's about a turn slower, can't draw when he comes into play, and, similarly to my Zur vs. Oloro argument, every deck that can play him would just run a few extra wizards and do much better with Azami. Arcanis is just a mediocre general, not tier 2 worthy. I'd slot him into tier 3.

Azusa: Since you need to run about 40-50 lands to truly abuse her ability, the deck is inherently less powerful than most decks. From what I've seen (correct me if I'm wrong, I haven't seen much of Azusa) the deck drops a turn 2 Azusa, followed up with more ramp, and ramps out to cast a fatty or Gen Wave. However, with the relative lack of tutorable wincons like Yisan, Azusa is much, much worse. The deck really doesn't have a backup plan besides casting Squall Line for x=less than your life total, and hoping to kill your opponents. Tier 3.

Bruna: Needing to deal 63 damage is a lot better than 120, but still kind of hard. Your 7 mana general needs to survive a turn cycle on turn 4 or 5, the turn when most combo decks have goldfished their win and stax decks have locked down the board. It just seems unrealistic for it to be played and survive. Tier 3.

Child of Alara: Unless you're playing 5c Control, it's just a worse version of Scion. If you're playing 5c Control, I'd say that that's a more tier 3 deck.

Ezuri Renegade: Yisan is probably a better elfball commander. It's like the reason why Sliver Overlord is better than Sliver Hivelord: one can just tutor the other.

Ezuri Claw: Being new and all, I haven't had time to build a deck and playtest, but he seems tier 3ish. The combo with Sage of Hours is cute, but the "dies to a stiff wind" argument can be made. The infect deck isn't great, and overall, I think that he's a tier 3 commander.

Marath, Marchesa: The "dealing 120 damage" argument can be made here. While they'll excel in 1v1's, they scale horribly with more players. The decks win on about turn 6 or 7, assuming your opponents have no removal, or any interaction at all for that matter. They're pretty poor commanders. Tier 3.

Memnarch: Just one question: Why? Paying 7 mana to cast your general, hoping it survives (it's an artifact creature, twice the vulnerability!) the turn, and then paying 7 mana again to steal one permanent isn't very appealing. He acts as a pseudo-wincon once you have infinite mana, but outside of that, I don't see many real applications. Tier 3.

Omnath: With a tuned deck, I'd say that this can kill a player on about turn 5, assuming the table has no interaction. That's a big caveat, and the fact that he can be chumped by any Llanowar Elves is unappealing. Again, dealing 63 damage is much better than 120, but combos will just be faster.

Purphoros: Ah, the one "aggro" general that might be tier 2 worthy. The fact that he's indestructible gives him protection from spells like Krosan Grip, Beast Within, Blasphemous Act, etc. The deck usually lands turn 3 Purphy and proceeds to spam tokens. Since the ability hits all your opponents, you realistically need about 15 creatures, who should be able to attack for the remaining damage. Cards like Mogg Infestation and even smaller scale token generators like Krenko's Command are powerful when you have a Purphy on board, but the deck can be blown out by Cyclonic Rift. (But then again, what deck can't? That card needs to be banned.)

Reaper King: I have literally no experience with this deck and have no idea what it does.

Shattergang: "But is it better than Prossh?" If you're playing Jund, and you really want to play stax, I guess Shattergang is passable. Throw in a few Grave Pacts, and hope? I don't know, but the general consensus is that Shattergang isn't great.

Sydri: Ah, my first commander! Obviously as a competent magic player, I picked a strong general as my first... Yeah, no. Sydri is pretty bad. Most of the combos are either slow, or just better suited for a Sharuum deck. The deck's signature combos are really general-dependent, and since redundancy is hard without half of a 2-card combo in the command zone, the deck is kinda bad. The deck's only good quality is the reliable backup plan of animate artifacts and beat down. Tier 3 material.

Teysa: The combo with Darkest Hour is nice, but from what I've seen, the deck isn't great when that's removed or countered. If anyone with more experience can weigh in, that would be helpful.

Titania: So you cracked a fetch and made a 5/3... now what? I don't think that the deck is very good, but again, it's the same problem with Azusa: I really haven't seen it in play that often. Someone else is probably more qualified.

Uril: See Bruna. The deck is faster, but less combo-y, but more resilient. Probably a better version of Bruna. I'm hovering between tier 2 and 3 with this one.

Thanks for reading.

I don't personsally see Ojutai, Soul of Winter to be tier three. I think he should be tier four at best. His ability required you to have multiple dragons attack, something that U/W has an extremely hard time doing. So, if you don't play dragon tribal (which outside of Scion is pretty poor anyway, at least from a competitive standpoint) then you're essentially paying 7 for a 5/6 flyer that taps one permanent for one turn rotation against three other people. That seems really bad compared to other t3 generals, such as Gisela, Blade of Goldnight and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite.

Marchesa actually makes for a reasonably competitive Stax commander. Allow me to be the first to impart the grand wisdom that cards like Smokestack are generally pretty great when combined with easily recurred permanents. She's basically Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker, except far less restricted and in a fairly better color identity. I sure do mention Shirei a lot, don't I? I suppose that's just my frame of reference.

Anyway, as for Shattergang--sure, they aren't Prossh, and one can always argue that you should really just be playing Prossh if you want to play Jund, but that doesn't mean that they aren't competitive enough for tier two, in their own right. I mean, by this logic, Prime Speaker Zegana should be moved down to tier three because she isn't Edric.

Ezuri Claw is certainly tier two material. I wouldn't exactly call his combo with Sage of Hours 'cute', if I were you. That would be like calling Prossh's combo with Food Chain or Sharuum's combo with Sculpting Steel/Phyrexian Metamorph 'cute'. Notice that all three of these combos actually require a little more work to properly win the game--haste enablers or Purphoros, God of the Forge with Prossh, Disciple of the Vault with Sharuum, and four (pre-sage) experience counters with Ezuri Claw. However, it would seem that this does not prevent these combos from achieving competitive standings--Ezuri Claw very much included.

As for everything else, I either agree, or don't have the experience to weigh in. More on this later, I suppose.

One thing that Bruna has going for it over Uril is Enchanted Evening + Cleansing Meditation.

Made even dumber with Archaeomancer to get Cleansing Meditation back.

My old (read; not updated since before KTK lol) was a prison pillow fort with Bruna as the finisher using Evening + Ethereal Armor/Corrupted Conscience that was heavy control. It was less about "hey, Ima land her asap and suit her up" and more about "I'm going to control the game for a little while and make sure you aren't going to kill me then I'll drop Bruna with counters up and one shot you"

TL;DR Bruna is a lot like Uril but IMO shouldn't be played like Uril.

Thanks for the awesome reply Leinahtan!

@Dredge4life

I agree. This has been mentioned a couple times now. Now that we have an actively updated list lets do it :)

@Dredge4life: Went ahead and moved Ojutai, Soul of Winter down in the change log list thingy. I doubt anyone would argue against the move, since he's inferior to Dragonlord Ojutai, as well as most of the current Tier 3 commanders, so no reason to wait.

@FAMOUSWATERMELON: Thanks! I admit, I have not had a huge amount of experience with Patron of the Moon. I'm not necessarily sold on him staying in Tier 3, but I definitely like having more background. Solid deck.

After playtesting both Purphoros and Uril I can say with almost certainty that aggro decks just aren't competitive in multiplayer EDH and don't belong in tier 2 with its current t5 goldfish requirement.

@Leinahtan

We've discussed Titania before, an optimized build of her is basically a very mean stax deck. Whether that's tier 2 worthy or not, I'm not sure, but she is a very powerful general.

Does anyone know what a competitive Marath list looks like? I've never seen one in action, but Marath himself (herself?) is a pretty hard card to evaluate because it's so versatile. My guess is that none of it's potential archetypes are tier 2-worthy, but I've never seen one in action or even seen a decklist.

Essentially, from what I've seen, it's Ghave with R instead of B.

While Marath costs less the B of Ghave gives you access to tutors that R doesn't let you have.

But hey, take what I say with a grain of salt.

This. The closest thing to a competitive Marath I've seen was essentially a devoted combo deck that won off of rather inefficient things like Mana Echoes + Phyrexian Altar. It wasn't terrible, but it also wasn't, in my opinion, worthy of Tier 2. His toolbox ability to take care of threats may make him resilient enough though. It's hard to say. Sadly, Marath is one of those many commanders that hasn't been solved yet. Or at least a solved list isn't widely known like Derevi or Jarad's.

If Shattergang, Uril (Wut?), Melek, Teneb, Bruna, Krenko, Sedris, Selvala etc are considered Tier 2, then Marath is also a tier 2 deck. He is easily on par with those commanders. In fact, Marath is a high-end tier 2 deck, and works pretty much exactly like Ghave (except costing half as much vs having a weaker color)

He is a card with extreme utility that goes infinite with a large amount of card combinations (Usually something along the lines of a mana generating source like Mana Echoes or Phyrexian Altar as well as a source for additional tokens / counters like Doubling Season.)

It's obviously not worthy of tier 1, but easily tier 2. Let's say you have a 3/3 marath and play Mana Echoes and have 3 mana left. Remove two counters from Marath for 6 colorless mana. Cast Doubling Season for that last colored mana. Bam, infinite power on marath, infinite colorless mana, infinite damage to infinite number of targets and infinite infinite/infinite elementals.

Too far-fetched? Hardly, considering the combo pieces could have been Blade of the Bloodchief, Cathars' Crusade, Tooth and Claw, Primal Vigor, Parallel Lives, Food Chain, Ivy Lane Denizen, Earthcraft, Death's Presence or pretty much ANY card that either makes additional tokens, makes mana out of tokens, or can put +1/+1 counters on Marath.

There are FAR weaker cards to go for in the Tier 2 list than Marath.

Oh and I saw Yisan, the Wanderer Bard is listed as tier FOUR.

He is tier two. He is FAR stronger than many of the contestants on the tier 2 list, yet you have him listed as tier four, not even tier three. He is also probably the MOST consistent commander that exists in the format.

His apparent weakness to removal is solved the first turn after he comes into play, as he fetches Sylvan Safekeeper. After that it quickly goes downhill as he fetches untaps into more untaps into guaranteed Seedborn Muse into more untaps into boardwipe protection into Avenger + Craterhoof or a simple infinite MLD combo.He also straight up gives counterspell / stax decks the middle finger as he ignores all their shit while not casting a single spell from his hand. Weak to boardwipes? From the turn Yisan hit play, he hasn't played a single nonland card from his hand, he's been tutoring with Yisan. His hand is still full of cards.

The weakness is obviously the turn he hits play, and without yisan managing to stick, it quickly falls behind. But in a 4 way match, NEVER letting him stick his commander for one turn can be harder said than done. It's clearly not tier 1 due to its weakness, but easy tier 2.

My only contention with Marath is, as I said, lack of tutors. Which, in this case, is massively apparent when you put Marath and Ghave next to each other.

The situation you listed assumes that you have all of that in hand or that you draw into them. Granted, you have Enlightened Tutor and/or Idyllic Tutor to help you get what you need but Ghave has the likes of Imperial Seal, Vampiric Tutor and good ol' Demonic Tutor as WELL as Enlightened Tutor and Idyllic Tutor to find it's combo pieces.

Don't get me wrong, Marath is a very strong commander who can do broken things quickly and I believe he should be tier 2 but when you look at the disparity between the two similar cards it becomes apparent which is better.

Ohthenoises: Oh I agree that Ghave is better. Black is a great color in Highlander, but Marath is still a fair bit stronger than many of the cards listed in the tier 2 listing.

There's a LOT of variance in the T2 because of the broad definition of what T2 should mean this has been discussed earlier in the thread.

Indeed. The question isn't so much whether or not Marath is worthy of being in the current Tier 2. It's if he'll be worthy of staying in the trimmed down version (approximately the top 3/5 of the current list).