Wish Tasigur was Tier One. Whenever I play it, I usually get hated on a lot by the table, even with other Tier One commanders out

This discussion should really get reset. It's getting ridiculously long.

150 is nothing.wait till 300.

We ask that you not discuss your own decks. While you may be hated in your own playgroup, it isn't entirely indicative of Tasigur's full power.

Although Circu, Dimir Lobotomist is not all to good, he can do cool things with Lantern of Insight and Field of Dreams, letting you control what other people draw to some extent. I don't think it's good, but it's definitely not deserving of tier 5 I don't think.

Why is Intet only T4?I've seen some very good decks using him and he seemed to be very strong. I'd say he's definitely not worthy of T2, with his somewhat high mana cost and sometimes the unpredictability of his ability, but he is definitely strong and worth at least T3. He can get out huge cards with ease and his colors,urg, have always been a strong combination.

Looked at this list and noticed that Tasigur, the Golden Fang wasn't in Tier 1.

This is a mistake. Currently, Tasigur is the second most played commander on MTGO, beaten only by Oloro.

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/commander#online

It has completely replaced Damia as the Tier 1 BUG option.

It is a strict upgrade over Oona, Queen of the Fae. It does the exact same thing (Instantly win with infinite mana), while having access to a whole additional color (and one of the strongest color combinations in EDH) AND is cheaper/easier to cast.

With infinite mana, Tasigur lets you infinitely cast every spell in your deck, by first milling your deck, returning your entire deck to your hand, then casting whatever you want until you win.

Sadly, popularity can't be relied on for power rankings. Notice how the fourth most played commander according to that site is Nekusar, the Mindrazer, despite him being fairly mediocre in power. And Omnath, Locus of Rage is #11 despite being all but unplayable at competitive tables. Meanwhile some of the strongest decks in the format like Zur and Derevi aren't even represented in the top 15.

With EDH being a casual format by nature, it's impossible to use the general populace as a indicator of power, as a large portion of them play for fun, rather than to win. Group hug, gimmick, chaos, and politics-based decks heavily skew data.

I will agree with Tasigur is a strict upgrade to Oona, but I'm not sure if that alone is enough to push him to Tier 1. I suppose he is fairly close to Damia's power level though. The only problem there is that Damia is stronger in a vacuum. Tasigur is fairly mediocre without the support of an infinite mana combo, whereas Damia can dominate by herself, drawing a huge amount of cards to quickly recover from precarious situations.

Also, @Penguin_Gamer_1: I agree, Intet, the Dreamer should be bumped up to Tier 3. He can be quite strong when built around. Cards like Sensei's Divining Top, Mystical Tutor, and Scroll Rack allow him hit big targets consistently. His power level seems much more consistent with the commanders in Tier 3 than 4.

Hello all!!! Sorry not having updated in a long time!!! I was on vacations, but tomorrow I should be able to start updating the list. I will restart the comments once I will be done!

Thank you all for your interest and support! Special thanks to NarejED for all the support!!!

You may want to think about moving Tasigur, the Golden Fang up into tier one. I was looking up 1v1 tournament results earlier and Tasigur placed usually in the top 2, and had the highest win percentage out of all the decks played.

Hes also very strong in multiplayer setting up very strong synergies with his ability and his color identity.

I have seen a few Tasigur lists in my local play group and they always seem to be over the top and have no problems winning unless the entire table is trying to hold them back.

Thoughts on Patron of the Moon?

He is listed as tier 3, I feel that is a generous placement for him. I def do not see him as a tier 1/2. I would put him in 4 honestly.

Also why is Rith in T3? He is similar to what I said about Intet, with him being in some very strong token decks and has lots of combos, along with having a pretty good color combination.

Tasigur is tier 2.5 on his text, tier 2 for colors. He is really good but he requires a good start and no real interruption. I have had multiple iterations of him, from combo to grind control decks, but he isn't a grear general for highly competitive play. He can help but giving your opponents a choice is never great. Most of his combos involve infinite mana, and what deck doesn't win with infinite mana, that was build around it?

I was mostly suggesting that as far as 1v1 generals go, aka competitive EDH, he is one of the best competitive generals. He consistently takes either the #1 or #2 spots in tournaments that are sanctioned. I was just wondering if maybe the 1v1 aspect of decks is less important to overall ranking on this list because EDH is supposed to be a multiplayer format and not 1v1.

@WalbenQuakeblade: You're exactly right. We're trying to base the power ratings here off of mutliplayer performance, with 4-player pods being the standard for testing wherever possible. As such, certain strategies that shine in 1v1 (hard control, tempo, aggro, voltron) are rated lower than they otherwise would be, because they're not nearly as dominant at larger tables. Take Marath, Will of the Wild. He's heavily played in French, because he's capable of quickly taking out a single opponent via an aggressive strategy. However, his power does not translate well to multiplayer EDH.

Is Ixidor, Reality Sculptor really deserving of T5? Surprisingly there are some solid cards that work well with him in blue such as Fathom Seer, Ixidron, Kheru Spellsnatcher, Dream Chisel, ect. His power is surprisingly strong flipping cards for only three mana and can be used for some pretty effective combos. Sure, he doesn't flip them back over, which would be much preferred, but even so he can make a strong morph deck. I believe he deserves at least T4 and maybe even T3.

Lorderos23: Spoken as a player who doesn't play dedicated infinite combo decks.

Yes, when people go infinite mana, they pretty much always have a win off that infinite mana. Know why? Because they don't bother to go infinite mana UNTIL they have the piece that lets them win with infinite mana. Tasigur means they ALWAYS have access to that piece. Try playing an infinite mana combo deck in modern/legacy and you will see just exactly what a huge impact this has.

Cutting a combo down from 3 cards (2 card for infinite mana, 3rd card to abuse mana) to 2 cards is HUGE. Being able to CUT all the infinite mana abusers from your deck completely due to not needing them and dedicating those slots to more digging is also huge. If you don't understand the difference in competetive viability between a 2 card combo and a 3 card combo you honestly have no job commenting on tier lists.

If you play him as a normal commander, he is pretty mediocre. Gives ok value by gaining back a few cards from your graveyard and has access to good colors, but overall that's not backbreaking. He gets some benefits from being a good politics commander though (give me this removal to deal with that permanent).

The moment he becomes a dedicated combo commander, he becomes crazy good.

Also, your claim about him needing a good start/being weak to disruption makes absolutely ZERO sense. A poorly constructed deck is weak to disruption / requires a good start. A good deck is ALL about making your deck as reliable as possible. BUG has the MOST access to fixing, ramp and card advantage/abuse of all 3 color combinations. It is fact the most resilient color combination short of Prismatic. Tasigur wins at instant speed the second he resolves with infinite mana available, ignoring all disruption short of split second. You HAVE to counter him, or you lose. He will win with all your disruption still on the stack. Tasigur's delve ability can even reduce the commander tax making him even MORE resilient, as he will often cost 1 mana.

Another problem that is not accurately captured in this tier list is that color combinations alone are enough to put certain decks in a high tier. All decks with blue can be tier 2, even if that commander is Kasimir the Lone Wolf. Mostly because it doesn't need to cast its commander to have a highlander deck good enough to compete. Needless to say, all 3 color commanders in tier 3-5 with blue don't belong there. Hell, Ixidor, Reality Sculptor as Penguin_Gamer_1 mentioned is Tier 2 for this reason.

The issue is then if you are going to be listing commanders based on their viability against OTHER commanders in the same color combination, or if you are going to list them based on their viability as a whole, for example I have no problem rating cards like Kasimir in tier 5, as they are strictly worse than pretty much any other UB combination possible, even though it could be a nasty deck if the creator tried.

Hell, all 5 color decks can be Tier 1 regardless of their commander.

Agreed on Tasigur, he's the shit. I tried suggesting him to be tier one a while ago but got shot down. He's definitely fitting of tier one

Sleazebag, your last point is exactly why I think we need to stop considering what decks commanders are usually run with, and rather consider what the commanders actually contribute to the decks that they're run with. Kasimir the Lone Wolf would probably never get played in most games so he's tier 5. He contributes basically nothing.

For a comparison; Narset, Enlightened Master has decks entirely built around her because her ability is very powerful and enables ridiculous combos. Without her, half the decks she's the head of couldn't even exist because they often use very high costed cards that are really hard to cast without her.

@Sleazebag

Yep, there's no one right answer to the Tier specifications. We just have to find the best one and muddle through it. For example, currently, if there's a high-performance deck that doesn't rely on its Commander very much (Grixis Storm, any 5C combo, etc) we try to attach only the 1-2 commanders that benefit the deck the most. Going back to Grixis storm as an example, it functions extremely well no matter what commander is stuck in the command zone, but since Jeleva is the most beneficial general to shove up there, she gets the deck attached to her, whereas Lord of Tresserhorn does not. Same for 5C combo decks. Scion and Queen are the best commanders for nearly any combo list, so they're the ones that get the glory, whereas Progenitus brings nothing to the table. It's a compromise that tries appease both sides: Deck power and Commander power. It's not pretty, and its certainty not perfect, but it does work fairly well.

We can't compare commanders purely to other commanders in their color identity, as that would lead to things like Eight-and-a-Half-Tails and Gisela, Blade of Goldnight be rated much higher than they should be on account of them being among the strongest commanders in their color identities, despite being junk against anything else. On the flip-side, we can't rate Commanders purely by their color identity, else every piece of junk 5C Commander would be Tier 1, and every Sultai, Esper, Grixis, Abzan, Bant, Jund, and Temur Commander would be at least Tier 2.

Woah guy, calm down.

You and your Tier 2ish Commander need to chill out.

@Penguin_Gamer_1

Ixidor is probably pretty safe in tier 5. There are some neat blue morphs, but not a critical mass to make a viable 99. Animar is the best morph general by a country mile, and gives access to the best morph cards (Maternal Witness, Temur War Shaman, Secret Plans, Trail of Mystery, etc.) while also being a straight up broken card. The problem isn't that Ixidor doesn't bring enough to the table himself, the problem is there aren't enough playable morphs in blue to make a reasonable deck. It's like saying Soraya the Falconer is a good mono-white bird general, but there just aren't enough playable white birds to make her playable.

I'm fine with Tasigur being tier one, even though I believe the Damia decks tend to be a little better. Similarly to Zedruu, just because people keep building tier three decks with Tasigur doesn't mean he isn't fantastic in his optimal build.

The main reason I saw Tasigur as being on the same Tier as Damia is mainly because, even though Damia does offer more hand advantage at one time, it only matters if she makes it to your upkeep. She comes in at 7 mana and offers nothing until your turn. At least with Tasigur, depending on how you delve, he will always net at least one card, and it comes at instant speed. His ability may depend on a bit of politics, being able to easily sway your opponents into helping you help them adds more fun to the game as well.

But I digress. Either way, both are really good commanders for combo or control. At least BUG has some pretty good options for good, competitive commanders.