I totally understand that that's what this list does, it's one of my points.

I mean y'all probably put a lot of work into this but for someone seeing it for the first time, like me, your description really isn't that involved. You all just haven't "shown your work" and until you do you're going to get a lot of people bringing up the same things.

My impression is that you've all neglected the latter tiers (which I think is fine I just don't understand why you keep them on here). I don't see why you would need to include every possible legendary creature on this list when competitive people can just Ctrl+F a specific legendary and find out that it's in a lower tier by omission. Basically I'm wondering what the value is of the distinction between tier 3, 4, and 5 (especially 4 and 5) for the purposes of this list.

In any case I'm curious as to whether or not you would put this list in tier 3 or tier 4.

Ouroboros (Infinite Combo)

Commander / EDH NewHorizons

SCORE: 35 | 35 COMMENTS | 4413 VIEWS | IN 16 FOLDERS

I ask just because the benchmarks for tier 1 are pretty evident from your description but the other tiers are pretty subjective to me.

Tier 1's purpose is the best competitive decks. Tier 2's is all the rest of the competitive decks that can work. Tier 3's is all the decks that can't work in competitive, but are best for semi-competitive (the most common level for a playgroup). Tier 4's is casual only, but can work. Tier 5's is unworkable even in casual metagames.

low 4, almost 5, not just exclusively because of the commander, but the fact you limited yourself to a budget at all. using extraplanar without snow lands for one. no fetches, no worldly tutor to fetch your pieces. little stuff you know. also, the deck relies on patron too much, i couldn't imagine anyone letting you set up game two (or next fnm or whatever), also 40 lands is a tad too many. also no gaea's cradle in mono g. i'm not saying the deck isn't good, i might even upvote it because i love PotO, but it isn't optimized.

It might not be T1 for very good reasons, but that doesn't mean it now sits comfortably in Tier 2 for good reasons. It sits there because there is nowhere else to put it, but now you have placed it next to decks which they are clearly, ostensibly better than all, but the few other decks that would be in that same category by a significant amount.

If you're trying to be so accurate that you're willing to put these T1 decks into T2 because they are no longer "T1 material," but you are not willing to stratify the growing difference between the upper and lower echelons of T2 (read: T2 decks that have a much better likelihood of winning/doing well should be T1.5), then why bother publishing a tier list for anything beyond Tier 1? Your attitude, I feel, has written off everything except for the 13 T1 decks because you are just lumping the next 45 best legends together. Do you really think that those 45 are just a tick below T1? Obviously they aren't. Very few of them are actually "just below tier 1".

I think that if you intend anything in this list beyond T1 to be accurate (which, let's be honest, there is hardly a point to this list if you're only going to publish what is in "Tier 1" with everything else being haphazardly tossed everywhere else), you should care about what is closer to Tier 1 and maybe provide a short discussion/update in the list description for changes between T1, T2, and T3. I also feel that T2 is not truly accurate. You cannot honestly tell me that all of those decks are able to reliably compete with T1 decks despite being less consistent. Only a select few are able to compete with T1 decks in speed and everything a decent percentage of the time, despite lacking the resilience to be a consistent presence (otherwise they'd be in T1). There is your stratification. That's how you define T1.5.

Again, what is the point of this Tier list if it is some loose amalgamation where you're shooting from the hip for where cards sit for everything except T1? Not having a T1.5 means that the list provides little meaningful information beyond T1 because T2 is so numerous with wildly differing deck power such that it doesn't tell you anything about what is borderline or reliably able to compete with T1 most of the time instead of needing to get lucky.

And calling it T1.5 would represent accurately, via its name, exactly why those decks are there.

NewHorizons, Wow you typed a lot. Adderall is a hell of a drug...

Anyway, I'm gonna try to clear some things up for you. (Your paragraphs were super long, and I was skimming, so apologies if I miss some important point you made.)

All the commanders are evaluated by $$$$ standards.

This is... not really the case. I know it's easy to assume it is, since we're always talking about "optimized lists," and we don't have decklists for anything below tier 2 (yet, I've been whipping up some for some of the teir 3 commanders), but using or not using super expensive cards doesn't really change the placement of tiers 3, 4, & 5 very much at all. Most of the commanders in teir 3 do very well in non-competitive metas using cards synergistic with their commanders and some mid-price EDH staples. In fact, when I design optimized lists for tier 3 commanders, I typically leave out super expensive cards that "go in everything" (like Mana Crypt, Gaea's Cradle, etc.) because I know I'm not building to a hyper-competitive standard.

The super expensive cards certainly come into play when you're considering whether something deserves a spot in the top 2 tiers, but once a commander's determined to not be up to stuff, you really don't need to count them anymore.

There's a lot of discussion here that revolves around what the criteria is for ranking commanders here (and how we've really neglected to come up with one so far), but I like to think of it using this formula:

Tier Placement = "How effectively does this commander contribute to it's deck's main strategy?" X "What is the power level of that strategy?" X "How well do the cards in this commander's card pool (a.k.a. color identity) contribute to it's strategy?"

And yes, people do talk more about the top two tiers. I don't think they're trying to neglect the other ones. It's just a natural tendency to want to discuss super powerful stuff because it tends to be more interesting to most people. Back when I was commenting more frequently here, I'd typically try to steer the discussion towards things that needed attention in the lower tiers.

There should be a sixth tier / a tier 1.5

This is not going to happen.

The reason this is not going to happen is that a while back, we actually tried out having six tiers. I should know, as I'm the one who suggested it. At the time, there was a lot of clutter in tiers 3 and 4, and I thought that by separating it into two tiers competitive, two tiers casual, and two tiers jank it would help clear up the list. While the process did help to clear up tiers 3 and 4, functionally there was no difference between tiers 5 and 6, and Gigi wound up just merging them into the current tier 5 since the number 6 was offending everyone's sensibilities. Ultimately, I ended up in favor of the decision, since as long as we didn't start bumping commanders out of T5 left and right, tiers 3 and 4 would stay neater.

tl;dr: Six tiers are bad, m'kay?

Specific commanders:

• Volrath the Fallen - This guy is actually one of the few times that Voltron shines in multiplayer EDH. He helms a highly controlling mono-black shell that can: swing for surprise one-shot lethal, control the creature presence on the board, or reanimate huge fatties as a back up plan. Plus the guy who made it has a super awesome description on this site: Volrath the Risen
• Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed - This has pretty much been covered, comes down early, mono black recursion for any card type, and he swings in nicely with swords and stuff.
• Bruna, the Fading Light - I'm not entirely sure why this is T3 either... I think when she was first spoiled somebody came up with a really weird set of human tribal combos that she can kick off? A commenter was promoting it super hard a few comment resets back, but I don't think anything's come of it. Should probably be moved down to T4.
• Chainer, Dementia Master - Now here's one you got super wrong. Not only does Chainer have excellent combo potential (Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat, Gray Merchant, and Kokusho, the Evening Star all mitigate his drawbacks, and you're self-milling, so you see your combo pieces more consistently each game.), but mono-black has access to more mana doublers and mass mana producers like Cabal Coffers than any other color, giving it some of the most effective ramp in the game and making Chainer's mana requirements practically negligible. Plus, his recursion synergies are often powerful enough to win he game outright without even needing to combo off. Before the mulligan change I personally thought that mono-black's inability to deal with artifacts and enchantments was the only thing keeping him out of tier 2. He took a little bit of a hit from that change, but he's definitely still powerful, and should not be moved down. Here's a decklist to peruse: Black Box Messiah.
• Crosis, the Purger - You run things that let you see your opponent's hands, then you hit the right people and name the right colors to get pretty large swings in card advantage, and card advantage is really the thing that most drives commander.
• Daxos of Meletis - I don't know of a decklist either, but I also see no reason to move him down.
• Dromar, the Banisher - This guy is kind of weird, and it's not something I'd expect most players to know about. Basically, how it works is that white has a ton of old cards that each hate on particular colors in punishing ways, and blue has a lot of color changing, and color-text changing, effects that allow you to tailor those cards to whatever is on the board. Since Dromar has a relevant ability, and gives you access to black for extra tutor power, he's the best choice to helm this kind of deck. It's quirky, and interesting, and also surprisingly effective. Also there are ways to break symmetry on his ability. Unfortunately I don't have a decklist to show you for this one.
• Kemba, Kha Regent - I think I remember seeing a functional list with her... somewhere... at some time... I don't know, you might be right on this one. Also I've made a case for Yosei, the Morning Star to be moved back to tier 3.
• Nath of the Gilt-Leaf - Nath stax has been mentioned, plus he dumps everyone's hands once you find Sadistic Hypnotist.
• Numot, the Devastator - Believe it or not, Numot started this list in tier 2. That was mostly a leftover of how powerful he is in Duel Commander, but getting to blow up lands every turn is still a pretty powerful effect.
• Queen Marchesa - She's just starting out in tier 3, but I think she probably has a home there. The thing is, while her abilities are not incredible, she fills two holes in EDH deck building that were lacking so far. First, she mitigates one of the main weaknesses of pillow fort EDH, which is that by playing defensive enchantments that don't gain you card advantage you run out of steam faster than your opponents. Now holding the monarch gets you extra cards, so you're getting a tangible bonus from your Mystic Barrier other than just not dying. Secondly, before her there weren't really any options for a Mardu token commander, which was super sad since those are the three colors that are literally the best at making and exploiting tokens.
• Maga, Traitor to Mortals - This guy could probably be moved down to T5, I've seen him work well as a kill-shot in Rakdos, Lord of Riots, but he's not really effective as a commander.
• Tibor and Lumia - Actually, these two are surprising not useless. Helms a nice control / aggro deck that focuses on playing big flyers and giving Tibor and Lumia deathtouch. List: Scorched Earth.
• Garza Zol, Plague Queen - Yeah, I don't know what this is doing in tier 4 either...

Also, I'd put your deck in the higher end of tier four. It has a nice combo win, mono-green is a good color, and it generates massive amounts of mana and can dump into things. Main drawbacks are that you're adhering to a fairly strong budget (no Worldly Tutor, Seedborn Muse, snow lands, etc.), that a main component of your combo (the haste granters) can't be tutored for, and that typically when most green decks get to ten mana, they're supposed be able to just win the game (Tooth and Nail).

It seems like a really fun deck though. I actually think I might have upvoted it a while back.

I wish you guys would put more of the justifications behind your lists in the actual description of the deck so that I didn't have to look like an idiot haha.

Also I'm pretty interested in a good Kemba list because I personally love the idea of giving her some regal alternate art and making some lioness alts for her tokens to set against a backdrop of gorgeous Plains....where was I...oh yeah.

Also both mine and RivenVII's gripes could be addressed by dropping some tiers on the lower end and using their leftover slots to add more nuance to the "top" tiers. This would differentiate between the disparity in power that RivenVII is complaining about in the T2 category and also address my complaints as well regarding the lower categories. And it seems like a decent compromise because it means this list will be more reoriented towards competition which is its stated goal, will make it more nuanced and useful for competitive commander, and it will maintain the magic number of 5 categories which is cumbersome to go over.

@RivenVII The problem then becomes that you could pick apart power level differentials in every tier, and at that point you might as well add tiers left and right. This list is a rough approximation, and should be treated as such.

Also, I don't think the power level in tier 2 is that spread out. Outside of Kaalia (I'm of the opinion that she's a tier three pubstomp general), I think most of the commanders in that group are in the same ballpark. Are there any specifically that stick out to you as too powerful/not powerful enough?

yavimaya_eldred Off the top of my head, Narset, Arcum, Sharuum, Black Sidisi, Leovold, High Tide Jace, Food Chain Tazri, Gitrog combo, Daretti Stax (maybe), and Doomsday Grenzo (maybe, I've heard about it being strong, but never seen it played).

Those just seem to be much better than the rest of them like Kaalia, Alesha, BUG Sidisi, Shattergang, Saffi, Marath, etc. that feel to me like the real "Tier 2" commanders. They're strong, can dominate a casual table with a good build, typically all have combo wins, decent stax shells, or somewhat efficient lines of winning, but are typically not consistent enough for whatever reason to perform constantly at a high level.

The ones that I mentioned sticking out, seem to me that they are much closer to Tier 1 than they are being with the rest of the Tier 2 legends. Obviously, this is up for debate, but there does seem to be a clear power separation between Tier 1 legends, the ones I mentioned, and then the rest of Tier 2. I agree that Tier 2 is too strong to put into Tier 3, so I think they should stay there and Tier 1 should be the best of the best so it shouldn't be oversaturated with legends that aren't good enough just because they're better than the vast majority of the Tier 2 legends that they are paired with.

Based on this, it seems like there really is a spot for a Tier 1.5 where the "fringe" commanders that are just outside of Tier 1, but are too strong for most of Tier 2 can sit. Unlike what sonnet666 described, this Tier 1.5 (or sixth tier) would serve a real purpose. No one is trying to recategorize the jank commanders here. They're all in Tier 5 and, for what they are, that serves this list well. Tier 3 and Tier 4 also have their roles. Tier 2 should be like the "rogue decks" that can steal a game once in a while competitively, but generally aren't powerful or consistent enough to get there. Tier 1.5 should be made of of the legends I mentioned at the start of my post (or a similar list, of course, as you can debate to your heart's content) as they are far stronger than the Tier 2 parameters that I mentioned, which I feel describe 80+% of the listed T2 commanders. Tier 1.5 can frequently take games off of the most competitive and tuned tables, but tend to lack the resiliency and consistent speed provided by the 13 legends currently placed in Tier 1.

I think this would be a welcome addition to the list that does exactly what it is intended to do: Inform EDH players what the most competitive commanders are, what the commanders not quite as good as the top commanders are, and what commanders are very strong, but generally not powerful enough to hang with the Tier 1 lists without a bit of luck in Tiers 1, 1.5, and 2, respectively.

RivenVII: i personally like the idea of a tier 1.5 list in theory, but it won't happen here for various reasons. While your idea is better than most I have heard, its a proposition that has been brought up like 30x and a hard stance has been taken in large part to cut down on a lot of work that will at best only produce a limited benefit. Moroever, whatever is done will still be criticized by a vocal minority every month or so.

On a more practical note a couple of the commanders you suggested for tier 1.5 are not noticeably stronger (or in my biased/ignorant opinion worse) than the some of the supposed true tier 2 commanders. I firmly believe that in short time Tazri and Leo will be firmly entrenched in tier 1, but the rest are a bit further down the pecking order (especially the big name generals like Gtrog or Narset). I can elaborate if you would like, but I feel enough essays have been written recently and NOONE (especially me) needs me to start flapping my gums on the subject in full force...at least not today :-) I'll just say that everyone is ignorant and biased. It all depends on what we are discussing.

BUG Sidisi is an excellent general in her own right, and both Alesha and Shattergang are exceptional Stax commanders. I agree Kaalia doesn't belong, but I think the rest of the tier 2 generals are much better than you are giving them credit for.

well they are tier 2. That's pretty good credit :)

I just had an idea that a handful of us could work together to make a short, but clear, description of why the tier 1-2 commanders are where they are at. It would be a brief, formal paragraph highlighting what he or she is good at, speed to wincon, and notable combos/synergies. While people can get it from the decklist primers, people are (on average) lazy, and having an accordian panel they can click on to see (for instance, why Grenzo is tier 2?) might cut down on many frequently repeated questions and free up our collective knowledge to be used in more productive activities like how to break a new card or often misunderstood and misplayed commander. At worst it would be a nice introduction to newer players interested in eEDH. Lord knows we need more players willing to go all in on a decklist. Alot of input would be needed from our cEDH subreddit regulars and people who have played the general to ensure the authors ignorance or bias does not innacurately portray the commander. I would even work on it on my own, but it would take MUCH longer and I am really only intimately familiar with half the generals in the top two tiers.

Sounds like a good idea, though if people are seriously too lazy to read the deck primers it follows that they would also be too lazy to read whatever we decide to add :p Still I support the suggestion!

I also think it's a fantastic idea.

I wasn't lazy it's just I was noting that there's literally no information on most of this list except for what's in 1 & 2 and the info that's there is pretty scant as is.

So does Inventor's Fair do anything for artifact based combo decks? Sharuum may not need it but maybe for decks like Teferi that are less tutor dense.

NewHorizons: I wasn't directing that comment at you in any way. I felt like you made several good points. Our lack of explanation for the top commanders has created a number of pervasive issues for our discussion with visitors and subscribers alike.

If any of you want to join the project I outlined, please message me a brief description for a commander you know well and I will organize those descriptions for critical review.

I'm going to test it in my Sharuum list.

i mean. it searches metamorph. so. yeah. it should be good n most artifact decks. including kemba

It's promising. I don't know of any EDH decks it's for sure going in yet, though Brago and Teferi are strong possibilities for obvious reasons. The only place I really love Inventor's Fair is in the MB/SB of Modern Lantern Control.

I love it for my wife's U Tron that uses thopter/sword and mindslaver.

Map for Fair, Fair for slaver, GG.

Looks like we've got at least one prospective Tier 2 commander coming out of Kaladesh!

Thoughts?

Rashmi looks like she could probably be in a spellslinger/storm deck, doubling the amount of spells cast.

Also noticed that there wasn't an Edric list, so I decided on making a list myself, advice for card choices would be great:

Edric the Weenie Master

Commander / EDH Triton

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