That_Man_Quise: Yes, I tried playing Tasigur on cockatrice to see just how powerful he was, and what I realized was that with tasigur in play, your opponents have a very hard time winning (Also, casting him for B is easy peasy. Bazaar of Baghdad is so damn broken.)

If they cast a spell that has to get countered, activate tasigur and ask the third or fourth player for the counterspell to stop him.

If they have a permanent that has to be removed, activate tasigur and get them to give you the Beast Within.

Yea, now I see... Tasigur, the Golden Fang is pretty good AND can play politics... I could see him tier 1... Votes?

I'll vote that

This is a commander I personally run, so take what I say with a grain salt, but I personally believe that Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker is a tier two general.

His ability seems like complete and utter jank, at first, until you consider that cards like Mindless Automaton, Scarecrone, Triskelion, Bone Shredder, Big Game Hunter, Noxious Toad (Errata'd to each opponent), Mesmeric Fiend/Brain Maggot (With an instant sac-outlet), Blood Artist, Zulaport Cutthroat, Workhorse, and many, many more such creatures have been printed over the years. Simply put, Shirei turns one man's trash into another man's incredibly abusive treasure, setting up all manner of abusive ramp/draw/discard/lifedrain engines, all of which can be active on each opponent's turn, effectively turning the game into a Prophet of Kruphix type scenario for the pilot. It's clearly a very attrition-based strategy (the actual card Attrition being optional), but one which can get the board on complete lockdown if played properly. There are even some ways of going infinite with Shirei, such as using him in conjunction with Magistrate's Scepter and Coretapper to take infinite turns, or perhaps using Arcbound Reclaimer and Mindslaver to infinitely take someone else's turn. I feel he's on par with Mikaeus, the Unhallowed in this regard--a tier two commander, as you can see. Sure, there are plenty of ways to hate on this strategy, but a properly built Shirei deck will include things like Cavern of Souls, Champion's Helm, and Yawgmoth's Will to keep up. As a plus, he allows you to completely break the symmetry of cards like Smokestack, Contamination, and Meekstone, either due to his very nature, or due to the way you would build a deck around him. In addition, if you've made him indestructible, he can turn your Damnation into a Plague Wind--which something he also does with Grave Pact. And, while it is a nonbo with Shirei, one can still use Skullclamp to help catch up from behind.

That's just my reasoning, of course. I'd like to hear what you have to say about it.

NoOneOfConsequence Read the description of the different tiers and you will understand. The biggest difference is that Mikaeus can more consistently win on the spot.

Merieke Ri Berit - I feel like tier 3 is still weak for her. I have played and played against it. The thing about her is she completely shuts down the early game. Early Zur,Azami,Arcum,Edric,Prossh,Azusa? Simply play Ri Berit once or twice in the early game and look at their sour faces.

Alright, I suppose I see what you're saying. It's pretty rare for any Shirei deck to assemble an unbeatable board state/simply win by turn 6, unless it just so happens to get lucky with Mana Crypt and Sol Ring--cards which other decks can abuse much better, frankly. Shirei does cost just one less than Mikaeus, but, as you said, Mikaeus wins on the spot more consistently. I will say that Shirei does have the capacity to be underestimated due to his lack of competitive reputation, but, then, I guess that's a lot of tier three commanders.

On a side note, can I ask why Arjun, the Shifting Flame and Seton, Krosan Protector are both tier four? That's really underselling their abilities.

I'm guessing Seton is there because Druid tribal just isn't quite strong enough. Arjun should be tier 3 though, as you can effectively sort your entire library with Arjun fairly quickly.

I prefer Damia because she is less situational. I have played against decent Tasigur decks, but those that run top of the line decks usually go with one of the other 2 BUG options in Tier 1. I like the Naner god, but I still put him in tier 2.

@NoOneOfConsequence:

Reading Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker, I think it's easiest to compare him to Meren of Clan Nel Toth, who is currently upper-middle Tier 2.Both Commanders recur creatures on the enstep, and have minor limitations (Meren requires several creatures to have already died to bring them back to field, and Shirei requires them to be low-power creatures). Purely in that regard, they're comparable, though Meren is still superior due to having a much wider range of targets and win conditions. There is one massive difference in power here though: Reanimator viability. Shirei's ability states that he returns creatures to play after they're put into graveyard from play, meaning he has no interaction with Buried Alive, Entomb, or any other critical graveyard dump. This can be crippling, since most commanders that have broken graveyard interactions use such cards as win conditions.

From there, their power levels further diverge. Shirei is in a much weaker color identity, having no access to green: the best ramp color and second most critical color to reanimator decks (Fauna Shaman, Survival of the Fittest, Birthing Pod, Hermit Druid). He also costs one more mana, meaning he usually takes at least one more turn to cast (two, after you factor in Meren's access to green). Finally, though not totally relevant, he has a smaller butt. Bodies are rarely important on utility commanders, but having something that can be cast with Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite on the field is somewhat relevant.

Since Shirei is significantly weaker than a middle of the road Tier 2 commander in almost every aspect, it is unlikely that he would be able to compete with other Tier 2 commanders in any serious way.

Yeah, I guess druid tribal isn't quite there--in order to really fill out the deck, you'd probably have to run jank like Nullmage Advocate, but there are still some very powerful druids, like Priest of Titania, Elvish Archdruid, Karametra's Acolyte, Voyaging Satyr, Norwood Priestess, Kamahl, Fist of Krosa, Krosan Restorer, Somberwald Sage, Wirewood Channeler, Elvish Harbinger and, of course, Gilt-Leaf Archdruid. And Chameleon Colossus, I guess. It'd probably play like a less consistent Azusa, Lost but Seeking or Omnath, Locus of Mana, ramping into the usual Tooth and Nail/Primal Surge/Genesis Wave. It is worth noting, however, that Aluren would probably let you cast every druid in your deck for free, commander included--and then Glimpse of Nature, just for lulz. Mostly just sounds like another mono-green deck, though.

NoOneOfConsequence Your feelings on Shirei are why we have the whole don't make the arguements for your own commanders. We all think our guys are a tier or 2 higher then they should be.

About the other 2 you put up for discussion, Seton, and Arjun. I feel tier 4 is the correct place for Seton. He is fun, but very fragile. Pretty much this part of the tier discription "they have to essentially be left completely alone in the corner to have any hope of winning." Makes for a fun politics commander if you are good at that.

Arjun on the other hand, he is up in the air for me. He is new, and I have not played since he came out. I could see him moving to tier 3 for now, but can not make the argument for him on that. I will have to check out some lists, and playtest him before I am able to say where he belongs. He has potential to move up I think.

@NarejED I agree with most of what you said, but there is one huge advantage that Shirei has over Meren that you didn't mention: He brings them back into play at the beginning of the end step, not just your end step. This would seem to suggest that Shirei could accomplish four times the work that Meren could (assuming a four player pod), but due to his 1-power-or-less limitation, as well as his color identity, which keeps him from abusing cards that Meren can abuse, such as Solemn Simulacrum and Sakura-Tribe Elder, they're likely still evenly matched, in this regard. This does, however make Shirei more resilient than Meren, as you can abuse his ability to disrupt people during their turns, as opposed to trying to preemptively disrupt them during yours. Ergo, they're a little closer together in terms of power than you've suggested, but still not quite on par, I suppose.

Addendum: That was a lot of typos.

For shame.

Shirei does seem nuts in bigger pods, I assume it plays out almost like Braids in a four-player game.

The problem is with that many players it's harder to keep it in play, which is where Mikaeus shines, since he can go off right away. And if Shirei isn't in play, your deck is full of a bunch of weak creatures.

@yavimaya_eldred Oh, absolutely. Any Shirei deck does almost nothing without...well, Shirei. It's a very commander-centric strategic--a fact that any well-built Shirei deck will account for to the best of its ability, but, ultimately, it's a weakness, not a strength. You're gambling pretty heavily if you play Shirei without a way to protect him (at least in some fashion) on that very same turn whilst playing in bigger pods. Still, he can very much have a Braids-like effect if left unchecked--Shirei abuses the shit out of Grave Pact and Dictate of Erebos. I've mostly retracted my request to have him moved up to tier two, though--he's not that difficult to hate out, and requires Shirei in order to do anything at all, in the first place.

thegigibeast, perhaps the the rules should not have a spoiler so people are less likely to overlook them. Perhaps this will lead to less need to defend certain placements because people are plugging their generals.

Just need to reset comments every now, and then. This is the sorting out phase, and there is going to be tons of discussion. I think we are pretty close to the point of it being a very good resource. Discussion should still happen, just not at the rate it has seen.

Also as to the Hermit Druid problem. Could we potentially create a list in the description for these kinds of decks. Granted this would lead to more discussions/work but if we keep it to some common ones I think we'll be ok.

As to Arjun, the Shifting Flame, I can see him being tier 3 (Although I havne't personally witnessed a deck yet). The massive amount of card selection that can be gotten from him is good. Obviously he's a little weak on the cost and chaos aspect.

@ MTWEmperor: That will hopefully be the next step after we get the Tiers roughly organized. At some point down the line, we'll hopefully be able to either give brief descriptions as to what type of deck each Tier 1 and 2 Commander plays, and/or have direct links to optimized builds for each of them. That should clear up a lot of the power level confusions.

Unfortunately, I'm in the same boat as everyone else regarding Arjun, the Shifting Flame. I haven't seen him in action enough to know his proper placement. I would imagine have the ability to play the best card in your hand before trading it in for an entirely new selection of cards could be powerful. By the same token, it might be a hindrance though. Combos would be all but impossible to assemble in hand. Protection would always be uncertain. His ability seems a double-edged sword, and I really can't tell if the upside can be maximized enough to make up for the issues. I would imagine he'd be best in a Storm deck, perhaps with Mana Severance + Goblin Charbelcher as an alternate win condition? I think it's safe to say he's not nearly as strong as Nin, the Pain Artist, but she's fairly strong for a Tier 3 commander, and the power range for the Tier is quite wide.

NarejED, there's stuff like Psychosis Crawler, Laboratory Maniac wins, Alhammarret's Archive, Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar etc which once in play make the effect not matter as much. The biggest hindrance I see is that a lot of these are mana intensive and it can't delay with counterspells as well because of the ability. That said rereading the tier descriptions I think as time passes tier 3 will be justified. He might be in the lower half of tier 3 though.

There are a number of cards that work quite well with Arjun's ability, actually, such as Chasm Skulker, Shared Fate, Jace's Erasure, Sphinx's Tutelage, Obstinate Familiar (to avoid killing oneself when something like Thought Reflection is in play, much like Tomorrow, Azami's Familiar can do), Dream Halls, Omniscience (always amazing, but much better when you can keep drawing cards), Words of War, Inner Fire, and many more. With something like Leyline of Anticipation or Vedalken Orrery in play, his ability really does become all upshot--or mostly, anyway. He probably plays very well as the head of a combo-storm style deck, albeit with potentially different win conditions.

Why is Talrand so low... Best pure control commander in the format imo.

I have to second what MTGTCG suggested. He's comparable to Azami in the way that he gives you a win condition simply for playing a control shell. He abuses things such as Proteus Staff and Isochron Scepter quite well, too. Simply put, if Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and Teferi, Temporal Archmage are tier two, then he should be, too, if for no other reason than that he makes a good leader for a blue control deck, an archetype which I'm sure none of us will deny is quite competitive.

MTGTCG, BEST control commander? As opposed to drawing at least an extra card per turn with Azami.....?