@thegigibeast I'm sorry you're having a rough time and hope it gets better. You don't really have a reason to apologize though, real life matters a whole lot more and I'm sure no one here would fault you for taking care of your own issues before this list.

Gonna leave everything up here until today for everyone to have a chance to read some comments, then I will update tommorow somewhere in the afternoon because near 500 comments is way too much ;)

Three things... First wow...

Second thing, how long do top tier games typically last? Do they have the same length as your typical commander game? Or do they go a lot quicke?

People talk about turn 3 wins, but are those theoretical, or is that typically achieved in a game? When you have 3 other players trying to stop you I don't feel a win that fast is frequent. I could be wrong though

In terms of phenax, I can see a self mill version being a power house. He has some combo potential. I've seen him do dirty things with Eater of the Dead

@thegigibeast hope your problems work themselves out. It always saddens me when Magic players go through bad times.

As a side note, I get how Edric works now. I built a budget deck with cards like Gudul Lurker for my casual group, and he's just amazing.

Aggro-Blaster turn 3 wins are mostly theoritical, goldfishes (in my experience) that are possible with some of the top decks, but in my play experiences, in a 4 players pod all with optimized lists from here (proxies for the win!!!) the game was (almost) always over or completely locked by turn 5.

@Aggro-Blaster: The length of games varies wildly depending on what decks are in the pod. Competitive games occasionally end on turn 2 or 3 if someone gets a great hand and isn't disrupted. It occurs infrequently at tables with lots of fast decks and relatively low interaction (Zur, Jeleva, Prossh, Tazri, etc). However, this is far from the norm. If one or multiple stax decks are present, games can easily stretch upwards of 15 turns.

The longest cEDH match I've ever played in lasted just over two hours. It ultimately boiled down to Derevi Prison (which had already lost all its main win cons to exile) and Sisay stax, which was in a similar boat. Both had large board states and no way to effectively end the game, causing an extended stall.

There's really no fixed length for games, but if I had to estimate, I would say the mean ending turn is somewhere around 7 or 8.

I hope things get better for you soon thegigibeast! Thank you for the comment reset.

Hey nice list!

Of course it isn't absolutely accurate as this is information goldfished from whatever sources/games you and however is helping the list. Like it is said we can write something to change a commander Tier and try to convince, I have a Zada, Hedron Grinder commander, and when the person who put her as tier 4 saw the card, probably didn't see her combo potential.

She is faster then Krenko, her combo speed is probably very alike Niv-Mizzet who is Tier 2, and everyone knows combo decks on Commander Multiplayer, are probably the strongest archetype you can have. Zada can combo T5 consistently when not interrupted and of course with those broken hands (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt...) She can go off T2/T3, and even when interrupted if she is on the field, you can still take advantage from her ability to full your hand up.

For those who do not know how her deck works, it is really simple. She makes a copy of an instant/sorcery that you target her for every creature you have, so.

Span Tokens -> use something like Accelerate (There are 9 of these on the deck)-> draw a bunch of cards -> gain huge amounts of mana with something like Battle Hymn (4 alike on the deck)-> Repeat, drop your deck on the field :) and use something like Enrage

It is extremely easy to set it up, and can win from nowhere, also if your commander is on the field it useless to counter her cantrips (unless its a Stifle), she is waay stronger then almost all Tier 3 list, so there is no reason for her to be Tier 4 xD, following this path of thoughts, she is easily Tier 2, maybe even 1, but 2 would be a nice fit for her.

@Raizen884 One of the rules is not to comment on your own commanders. anyhow, thought I'd point out issues with zada from watching it being played and also playing it for a time

she can easily kill people. that is true. but its usually more like 1 person, and then she tends to run out of gas, She's also extremely fragile of a strategy and can be easily shut down by just about any deck out there.

so now, she is certainly not tier 1 material, not tier 2, probably not tier 3 either.

Is anyone working on an optimized Nin, the Pain Artist list at the moment? I'm interested in the commander and really want to see what an optimized list looks like and does.

Aggro-Blaster, I know your question has been answered already but let me answer it as well!!

The decks that are claimed to win by Turn 3 consistently, they typically do this against anything that isn't another highly competitive deck. In most games at my LGS, I can get these T3 wins.

Against other Tier 1 decks, the game can be slowed down because you're facing other highly competitive decks. I don't typically win T3 when I'm facing other cEDH decks at my LGS.

Also you may not want to combo out depending on the other decks you're facing. This is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of Doomsday combo. I feel as though that combo specifically is very easily disrupted, especially if you're facing 3 other Tier 1 decks.

Due to the risk of disruption, you may need to wait longer to ensure you have enough protection in hand.

Zada's card advantage potential feels tier 3 to me. It mitigates some of reds primary weaknesses quite nicely.

Zada's card advantage potential feels tier 3 to me. It mitigates some of reds primary weaknesses quite nicely.

Yeah, I'm going to second Zada moving up as well. I actually already thought she was in T3 already. She generates an amount of card advantage that is rarely seen in red, and its fairly easy to assemble one of red's two card combos if you see half of your deck each game.

Plus another red cantrip was spoiled in Kaladesh, so the number of playable hand restocks for her is now up to 10 (generally the threshold for critical mass of an effect you need to see once each game).

It's super reliant on your commander and your field presence, so I don't think it's competitive, but the card advantage and combo potential fits the bill pretty well for T3.

So with so many comments, debates, etc, is anyone capable of just outright saying whether there was a consensus on where the new legends from Kaladesh belong when it comes to tier? Or if not a consensus, a general opinion that seems accurate? To whit:

Rashmi, Eternities Crafter

Kambal, Consul of Allocation

Depala, Pilot Exemplar

Oviya Pashiri, Sage Lifecrafter

Gonti, Lord of Luxury

Pia Nalaar

Padeem, Consul of Innovation

My own opinions

Rashmi T2

Padeem good in 99 but as commander T3-4 at best.

Gonti strong 3 or weak 2 the ability is insane but requires a few hoops be jumped through to get lasting value.

Pia T4-5. Terrible

Depala T4-5. Also terrible.

Ovyia T3-4.

Kambal seems T3-4 as well.

Rashmi, Eternities Crafter - T2

Kambal, Consul of Allocation - T5, Weak lifedrain effect. good in the 99 of Karlov, but that's about it.

Depala, Pilot Exemplar - T5, No support yet. Might be a good commander... in like 5 years.

Oviya Pashiri, Sage Lifecrafter - T4, Weaker Rhys in a color identity that has no atifact support whatsoever.

Gonti, Lord of Luxury - T4, The effect is meh since you're not getting the spell for free, and there are almost no blink engines in mono-black. so you'll need to set up some sort of convoluted recursion engine to get any value. I wouldn't even run him in the 99 to be honest.

Pia Nalaar - T5, Sac outlet that offers no mana or card advantage? No thanks.

Padeem, Consul of Innovation - T4, Good in the 99, but there are better options for non-competitive blue artifacts than a maybe Phyrexian Arena on legs (Muzzio, for instance).

i might be dumb, but i still dont think rashmi is t2. to be able to get it every turn you have to run a super low curve, so you have enough mana to get a cast off 3 times per turn rotation. the card advantage is nice, but i dont see you being able to cast many things off the top. plus i dont see how you win with her in a way that momir vig can't already do. if she is to be t2, she is certainly on the lower end of the tier.

Hotcake_Gotsyrup: With Rashmi, I think it helps that there are a number of EDH staples that are usually used to control your deck or hand such as Brainstorm, Scroll Rack, and Sensei's Divining Top that are usually run to get rid of unneeded cards, but could be used in Rashmi just to set up plays for card advantage.

Rashmi, Eternities Crafter: Tier 2. She's in good colors and offers a fairly powerful form of card advantage.

Kambal, Consul of Allocation: Tier 3. He's a Ruric Thar that costs half as much and only punishes opponents. The downside is that his lifepoint swing is only 4 instead of 6, which makes sense given their cost disparity. Great against Storm and other builds trying to cast oodles of non-creature spells.

Depala, Pilot Exemplar: Tier 5. There aren't really any playable dwarves OR vehicles yet.

Oviya Pashiri, Sage Lifecrafter: Tier 4. She's a bit like Rhys the Redeemed, but clearly weaker, having access the fewer colors and abilities that aren't quite as powerful.

Gonti, Lord of Luxury: Tier 4. His ability is alright, but to really abuse it you need a way to infinitely flicker/cast him. All combos that do that require a large number of pieces. I see him as a Mikaeus with much less utility and combo potential. Mikaeus is Tier 3.

Pia Nalaar: Either Tier 4 or 5. If you have infinite colored mana in mono red she's theoretically a win condition, but how often is that relevant?

Padeem, Consul of Innovation: Tier 3 or 4. Both abilities are highly relevant in an artifact themed deck, but Teferi, Arcum, Muzzio, and several other mono-blue commanders are just so much better.

maybe i am trying too hard to compare her to her competition in UG. but in comparison to the other t2 comms she does seem lack luster, but looking at some of t3 she seems busted. so i guess t2 is a good spot. and i didnt really think about how much value she gets out of top activations on top of her cast trigger. also she is good in vig, using his green ability to set up the most possible advantage out of every first cast.

@Hotcake she is certainly weaker than most the tier 2 commanders but stronger than Newzuri, which is probably the best tier 3 commander. Even if you are using her ability 1 to 2 times a turn cycle, thats alot of free card advantage that occassionally also casts things for free.

NarejED, I'm really not feeling Kambal in comparason to Ruric Thar. Yes he's cheaper, one-sided, in better colors, and nerfs storm, but at the same time part of Ruric's appeal was that he would kill players very quickly just for playing their deck. I'm not seeing the same treat level from Kambal.

Yes, he swings for four, but only two of that is directed at your opponent, which gives your opponents much more leeway to play their deck before getting down to a hazardous life total. Even a storm deck can probably work around that since if Kambal comes down on turn 3, and you're storming off on turn 4 or 5, you'll have 17+ spells with which to find a Tendrils of Agony or Aetherflux Reservoir before you have a problem.

Maybe he could make T3, but it's something I'd need to see an effective decklist for before I'd be for it.

so is sydri storm going to be viable due to aether flux resevoir? since you can make it a lifelinking dude and all, and she can tutor for it quite easily. would this be better or worse than her current build, and how much so.

@Hotcake_Gotsyrup: Probably better. The current Sydri build (mine) is pretty bad. It wins via infinite colorless mana shenanigans, which has never been an ideal strategy. Death Star Sydri is almost definitely stronger.