I literally have about 20-23 infinite combos in my deck. and its actually hard to not just draw into them, people in my meta never get past turn 6 like ever, most of the time people are comboing turn 2-3 and i very rarely have trouble beating them to a combo. im just faster bthen them with almost any hand in my deck. i run more ramp, better lands and mulligan aggressively build it right.

If you build it right*

I think he can be built strong yes, maybe tier 2, but everything in tier 2 is already so strong, but in my experience at our local fnm he has never won a pod, everyone runs so much artifact removal or nonbasic/basic land destruction he just never goes off, and like i said similar to my Selvala, Explorer Returned Leovold, Emissary of Trest completely ruins his draw ability.

I would say that trying to do any of that in any pod of mine you would be dismantled. Yisan has one of the highest density of artifact hate of any commanders. I can destroy any artifact or enchantment on almost any verse not to mention Bane of Progress on 6. I also run at least 4 instant speed artifact/enchant removal spells.

Remember, another facet to tier placement is being able to fight through disruption. Your deck does nothing if your metalworker gets countered.

That's not to say your deck is bad and you should feel bad but simply that disruption at a top tier table WILL happen.

As an addendum: that's probably why you were met with so much doubt about your meta being super tuned. If they were someone would have disrupted you. If you see metalworker you KILL it no questions asked.

@TronIsloveTronislife: A lot of the combos you listed are decent, but they can also be run in literally any deck. And any other color combination will have the added utility of access to colored spells in addition to them.

It's impossible to justify the power of a colorless deck based purely on its 99. You can splash any color or color combination and make the deck shell strictly better. Those same "20-23 infinite combos" are far more potent in a deck with access to blue's artifact tutors and countermagic, or green's ramp.

With the deck out the window, you're left looking at the commander: Kozilek. 10 drops in EDH that don't immediately win the game are not very strong. Tooth and Nail and Maelstrom Wanderer cost 9 and 8 mana respectively, and almost immediately win the game on casting, yet both are regarded as fringe-playable. Wander is Tier 2. Does it really make sense to stick Kozilek in the same tier?

@Ohthenoises How are you consistently winning with Yisan T2-T3? Yisan consistently plays Yisan T2, and generally needs to get to verse 5 and then win in a turn cycle. Winning on T2 means you're not even activating Yisan, and winning T3 means you're activating Yisan exactly once (with only 1 mana to spare).

Yisan's strong because he gets to verse 5 and locks down the game by T5. Selvala is the more fragile and explosive mono-green commander, and "explosive" means "gets disrupted by anything, but wins T3-T4.

I'm missing how you win the game by T2-T3 in Yisan. Yisan's fame to claim in CEDH is that his consistency and toolboxing despite his (relative) lack of speed.

I was just exaggerating to prove a point. Just because something CAN be done doesn't mean it can always be done reliably.

For reference though you can effectively win the game that early by getting out 2 dorks, a cradle, and a winter orb on T2 after T1 Yisan. (Technically possible)

A winter orb that early can stall out so many decks dead while cradle provides me with all the mana I could need. Not an absolute victory by any means but technically possible.

But you specifically said that you can win 70% by T2-T3. Also, that line specifically requires a mana crypt, because Mox mana will leave you too low on cards.

If your opener is 2 dorks, crypt, forest, cradle, orb, you should be winning regardless; and this is far from a pure win because several T1 decks can play through an Orb.

I'm still not seeing the 70% T3 kills. You mentioned he's more consistent than Selvala at winning by then, but Selvala's far more consistent at winning than Yisan by T3 specifically. What Yisan has going for him is that Selvala's both inconsistent (even though she can win faster more consistently) and fragile (Yisan's relatively resilient).

Again I was just driving home a point.

The majority of people will consistently over exaggerate their avg goldfish kill. Not blaming - I see it everywhere. I think it is human nature to remember those awesome turn 3 kills and forgot about the t6,7,8 or occasional total bricks. Tappedout provides a nice playtesting tool - its a fun exercise to goldfish 15-20 games and record the kill speed of each. I guarantee both avg and median are much higher than typically reported. No way Yisan or colorless are averaging T3.

Lesser_Gargadon It all depends on who the Commander is.

I can win extremely early with my Zur the Enchanter deck. I tend to take a little extra time though as I prefer to use protected wins and don't often go all in. I feel that Mana Denial Zur is just as powerful as he has always been. I don't feel the need to play the Ad Nauseam, Doomsday that other people think is better.

My strategy changes from game to game, and I don't typically kill everyone the same way. For example, I may mill somebody out with Helm of Obedience + Rest in Peace T3, then kill someone else with Commander damage on T4, and the last opponent with Helm+RiP also on T4.

My strategy typically involves what I get in my starting hand. There is always a combo piece, so that dictates the direction I go in.

While I think it average does tend to be a little higher, some can consistently win on those turns. There are also some decks I just don't understand, like Grixis Storm. I have yet to learn how to play it properly, and how it is winning around T3. Obviously with that said, I can't comment on it.

I believe each deck wins at later turns when played against a cEDH playgroup. In less competitive groups, I will consistently win on T3-T4. In more competitive playgroups, it really comes down to who has the most disruption and can combo out first, in my experience. Most Tier 1 decks, I know how they work and will keep proper disruption available.

I also have to say, I disagree about the decks occasionally "bricking" because a properly built deck won't brick, ever. Although that is one reason I don't use the Doomsday combo. I find it is too easy to disrupt, especially against 3 highly competitive players. Perhaps my meta is too Control heavy because everyone else seems to think it is one of the best Win Cons.

Obviously there is much more to playing and winning than the goldfish turn and it is often best to not take the fastest line. My point is that there are very few decks that consistently go off T3 but a lot of people say they do - just scroll up 10 posts or so. Yes, almost every decent deck occasionally hits a T2 win - that doesnt make it a T2 deck.

Even good decks brick occasionally. By brick I mean get stuck in topdeck mode and reach a winning state significantly later than typical. Maybe not the tutor generals like yisan/zur, but fast combo will often mull to a playable but greedy hand where they need to draw a land (Tazri/Druid) or are relying on the results of a wheel or mind's desire (grixis storm) to fuel them into more spells and it just doesn't hit. The more tutors and redundancy, the less likely, but it happens, and it doesnt typically get factored in when people talk about "avg kill".

Guys... Remember rule 1. This is like the 10th time we've had an argument about consistency on here.

Ohthenoises, Getting back to your Mishra comment: While I certainly think Mirsha is super cool and has powerful synergies, I think the thing that holds him back a little is that he requires specific cards in order to function, without which he flounders, and the real clincher is there aren't actually that many cards that he synergises with.

You have Blood Funnel, Nether Void, and Possibility Storm, which are fantastic; Chalice of the Void, which is a little too specific and costly to work in EDH; then what? Planar Chaos, the definition of unreliable? Nullstone Gargoyle? Maybe in the future if more cards that synergize with him are printed he might make the jump, but for now I think he's better suited as a T3 general.

davidsays1, I think I'm the reason that Norin was placed in T4, and I think I'm still going to stand by that. Norin is usually made as a chaos deck, which can mess with people, but it also comes at the cost of messing with yourself.

Also, most of the cards typically put into a Norin deck don't really capitalize on his own abilities besides Confusion in the Ranks (I'm not counting Purphoros. If you wanted to direct damage everyone to death why wouldn't you just run him as your commander instead?), and the commander's contribution to the deck's strategy is really the main talking point in terms of this list. (Grixis storm is the exception, not the rule.)

Ice Cave too but in grixis colors a "controled chaos" deck would be hilarious. I'm just wondering if it could be built to be absolutely cutthroat since most of the cards that synergize with Mishra also make a huge negative impact on the rest of the table. (Imagine taking on a storm deck with Nether Void?)

Also, how does he work with Yawgmoth's Will?

Oh, interesting, doing more digging I see effects like Thada, preator's grasp, and gonti can all interact well with mishra too. Steal something from their deck, cast it, get yours too. Useful for ramp pieces.

I've seen cut-throat builds of him that storm off with using mana rocks and Blood Funnel + Vedalken Archmage/Riddlesmith, but I still don't think that's consistent enough for T2.

Keep in mind that his best cards are enchantments, which red and blue have no tutors for, and he still an artifact deck, so he also can't recur them well.

As for Yawgmoth's Will? Not well... The exile clause shuts down Blood Funnel and Nether Void for the turn, and casting a card moves it to the stack, so Mishra won't give you a bonus. You're better off casting other people's Sol Rings and Mana Crypts with Thada Adel, Acquisitor and Praetor's Grasp.

Well his friends ARE enchants but you ARE in black. Plenty of 1-3 cmc black tutors.

Seems good though. T3 it is then lol.

Why is vela the night clad so low. She is in a good color combination and offers a strong life loss effect. Rite o rep and exsanguinate as well and access to good tutors seems reliable to me. Her first ability is essentially useless, but that life loss is no joke. She wins on the spot outright with combos blue already runs as well, and she bypasses the proof, which is usually irrelevant, but good to note. Explanation?

Why is vela the night clad so low. She is in a good color combination and offers a strong life loss effect. Rite o rep and exsanguinate as well and access to good tutors seems reliable to me. Her first ability is essentially useless, but that life loss is no joke. She wins on the spot outright with combos blue already runs as well, and she bypasses the proof, which is usually irrelevant, but good to note. Explanation?

I've wondered the same thing but I have a Vela deck so I've been quiet on the subject. Her life loss ability can really do some work. I think she's at least tier 3 but that's all I'll say since I'm biased.

It's not really in good colors for that kind of win but it's not the worst.

i wouldnt say her colors are that bad for the type of strategy this would be. not ideal, but def usable. she has access to rite of replication and exsanguinate as finishers, and ways to tutor both, good card draw, access to a decent counter suite, hand disruption and has her own evasive body to eek out those life total. and she, again, wins with commonly used combos like palin-deye. with cloud stone curio and 2 cheap creatures it would seem she could put in some decent work. and black has a decent amount of token generation as well. im just saying she definitely seems like she could race with a khemba deck. t3 seem more accurate.

If you can't make infinite mana, or it's not your main strategy, Exsanguinate is a sub par card.

This means you're paying six mana for a commander that has no impact on the board the turn she comes in, and only combos with Rite of Replication, a 9 mana card; Blade of Selves, a card that is nerfed if there are 3 or less players in the game; or a bounce/sac loop, which will need about 4 or 5 other pieces, most of which are dead cards half the time.

I'm sorry, but this is weak casual at best.

First I agree but to be fair people WERE raving about Ishkanah being an "autowin from the command zone", Vela is similar IMO, to that discussion.

Ishkanah is easier to abuse than Vela, though, and has a more relevant board impact the turn you play her.