It looks like tempers are running quite high tonight. This is why we don't advise advocating your own Commander. People typically have a skewed view of the decks they run, and every point against them feels like a personal insult. Let's take a step back from the Talrand discussion for a while. Leave him in Tier 3 and change the subject.

What are the opinions on the Legendaries being introduced in OotGW? This will be the first time this Tier List has experienced new cards being added. It might do to start discussing possible placement now, before the set is added to Tappedout's database. Nothing looks terribly strong, but I certainly see a few possible Tier 3 placers.

My thoughts so far:

General Tazri will be a lot of fun to build but as for sheer power level its hard to say. I think starting her at 3 would be fair and she can move up or down depending.

Mina and Denn, Wildborn enable a lot of landfall hijinks and they have a built in way to give important creatures the push through they may need. But they would have trouble winning a game on their own. I like 3 for them as well.

Jori En, Ruin Diver seems to me to fit better in the 99 than commanding those colors. She doesn't offer a specific way to win or any sort of build around me mechanics. Tier 4 or 5 for me.

Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim is above curve without her abilities, and has a relevant creature type if you are going that route. There may be better sac generals out there but this one offers you different types of profit for your expense. She is the only one I would MAYBE put at 2 before testing but I still think 3 is safer.

Kozilek, the Great Distortion is a strong card but I feel he is lackluster as a commander. His second ability is too hard to build around and plan for so he is kind of a one trick pony. Id rather run the old eldrazi or newlamog over him. Tier 4 or 5.

Linvala, the Preserver has awesome art but not much in the way of commanding a deck. Mono white NEEDS so many things so maybe a commander than can help get you back on track while down is better than I am giving it credit for but a 5/5 flier for 6 mana if I am already up isn't securing my victory the way I want my commander to. Tier 4.

Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet has an identity crisis. Which makes him even more viable in my opinion. Hes not asking you to play tribal to use him, but hes better if you do, even if its a mixed tribal. Lifelink is meh especially when white isn't involved, but I would like to see someone build him in a mono black voltron build where he pumps himself. Outside or recursion though black doesn't have a lot of ways to protect its investments so I can see him making me sad after i pump him two or three times just to have him killed on attack. Tier 3 for sheer amount of new options he brings to mono black.

Massacre Wurm + Meren of Clan Nel Toth and 6 experience counters and a sac outlet = boardwipe every turn and Talrand better have a Stifle.

Very well, Narej--I'll agree to your suggestions, and change subjects. I'll note, however, for posterity's sake, that I do not personally run Talrand as a commander.

On to OotGW. Where else could the discussion begin but the new Kozilek? The original Kozilek is a only a tier three commander, of course, and for good reason--colorless EDHs tend to be somewhat lacking where card advantage/tutoring are concerned, which are both vital elements to any competitive EDH deck. Given the widely varied CMC of cards in EDH, his counterspell ability isn't exactly reliable (and you likely aren't discarding anything that you'd actually want to discard, given that you're colorless), and, while 'drawing cards equal to the difference' can almost mean 'draw six' or even 'draw seven' for a hardcore colorless ramp strategy, the original Kozilek gave just as much card advantage with his annihilator ability, which would also likely prove to be more evasive than simple Menace, I daresay. Nonetheless, He's still a natural two-turn clock for an opponent, and could likely be instantly lethal if the pilot had a good opening with things like Lightning Greaves, Hall of the Bandit Lord, and Fireshrieker.

A tier three voltron general, I'd say, except that, even without the actual 'voltron' aspect, he still packs quite a punch.

Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim actually looks much better, although still not quite tier two, I don't think--I'd like to hear what others have to say about her first, though.

@Squirrel_of_War Does that honestly sound like a realistic scenario to you if the Talrand player kept anything other than a hand with seven islands? There are plenty of ways to actually wrath the board every turn, but all of them are difficult to assemble and easily dealt with.

Regardless, we've changed subjects.

I play Talrand - sometimes ... if I clear it formally or informally first ...

He is a long-game control / psyche-out commander that can make great stories and flipped tables in 1v1. In multiplayer he is a socio-political headgames commander that can fuck with alliances and promote table discussion.

Is he tier 2? I would argue that as much as I get guilty pleasure from using him to bring the game to a more player focused level from time to time, he isn't that commander that you better do something about or lose in multi - and he has something like a t5/t6 power strategy realization in 1v1. Unless that psychological factor is a thing, he is much diminished. I think tier 3 fits. By no means does the table need to focus him or lose. He has little early presence. He is not an explosive wtf how did he do that again every time commander. He can win and impact the game but it depends alot on politics and piloting. I am glad he exists for flavor reasons but he is not the biggest threat at the table. He might be a priority for siding with.

I don't think any amount of discussion with appease the Talrand truthers, but here we go....

Combo-control is always going to be better in multiplayer than pure control. In the case of Azami vs. Talrand, this is even more pronounced. Talrand needs the long game to win, Azami doesn't. Talrand decks need Talrand to stay in play while you cast spells that aren't wraths to gain substantial value, Azami decks don't. Azami can end a game on the spot, Talrand can't. Talrand requires a specific kind of deck construction to be a good card (tons of instants and sorceries), Azami doesn't (you can do the wizard thing, or the full-on combo thing, the full-on control thing, or the combo-control thing).

It's not even a reasonable debate; Azami can do all the same things Talrand can do, except Azami does it faster and better. The "wait for Talrand until you've out-attritioned your opponents" argument doesn't even work, because most good EDH decks can play the long game at an equal or even greater level, and you're playing against 2-3 of them. Playing the long game isn't even really in Talrand's favor, as you don't want to give most decks a lot of time. The two cards belong a couple of tiers apart, and they're currently in the correct order. Azami is the much better card.

I was just talking about Talrand as a tier 3. I wasn't comparing to anything.

Talrand continues to exist and see play even though Azami exists and is regarded at tier 1.

I have 13 decks purposefully set on different tiers. My initial playgroup frowned on supercombos. Blue has lots and lots of card draw that doesn't require having a wizard in play to tap. It isn't generally as strong at producing creatures.

As well, the two decks have different flavors.

Furthermore, generally, the existence of tier1 generals doesn't render lower tier generals unplayable in multiplayer formats that run on politics as much as deck-building.

I am agreeing that Talrand is tier3 but that is not the same as tier 5 and I for one only disregard tier5 generals as unplayable. After that, for me it comes down to flavor and matching play-styles.

I am not trying to argue that Talrand is the same tier as azami. Nor was I previously.

I also am not passionately angry. I am kind of chuckling and grinning at this nonsense.

Sorry for adding to the Talrand discussion after the cease-fire, I had written the reply earlier and submitted it without catching up with the thread.

As for Oath, here's my two cents, sort of piggybacking off of LittleBlueHero;

General Tazri seems like the best legend in the set, though not necessarily because of power level, but because we finally have a good five-color ally commander. Exciting card to finally have in the format, probably tier 3 to start. Now if we could just get a general for wurm tribal.....

Mina and Denn, Wildborn Seems more like a lieutenant for a Omnath, Locus of Rage deck than a good commander on its own, personally. Definitely not embarrassing as a general but feels tier 3-4ish while being an elite role player.

Jori En, Ruin Diver Again, feels like a role player. While cheap to cast, not sure what she does as a commander that other Izzet generals don't already do. Tier four is probably a good starting point.

Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim Rivals Karlov of the Ghost Council as the shiny new Orzhov lifegain general. Cheap commanders with a lot of words on them tend to be good, so tier 3 seems like the worst she can be.

Kozilek, the Great Distortion Meh. Cool card, but again, feels better as a card to play in a deck than a general himself. Old Kozilek is more consistent, new Ulamog is a better game-ender. The Disrupting Shoal ability is interesting, but with a higher range of CMC in EDH it doesn't overwhelm me. Tier 4.

Linvala, the Preserver This card sucks. Tier 5 might be too harsh, but she's expensive, too situational, and isn't even that powerful. Really bad general.

Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet Versatility is his strength, and I like flexible generals. Still feels a better as part of a 99 since he's not great at any one thing, but should be a solid commander. Tier 3.

Stoked on the 5c ally guy. Pretty sure he will land in tier 3/4, but I am making that deck. Allies were my game back in Zen times. I miss them, and the new ones fell short of my expectations. Problem is building 5c from scratch is going to be rough. I have 0 staples to work with, so I will have to get to trading for some lands for it asap, and I also have to figure out a budget to work with.

1. Talrand decks do not need talrand in play to do their job effectively. A pure control deck does not need their win-con out at all times. Pure control decks create for themselves all the time in the world to get their win con out. Even if talrand were to be constantly countered and removed, most talrand decks can still win with the likes of bribery rite of replication Diluvian primordial etc. in fact board wipes help talrand pure control decks because talrand is good because it can buy time with blocking, but a board wipe makes it so blocking isn't needed so having your drakes destroyed by a board wipe is no big deal. most decks with talrand as the commander are pure control decks not talrand decks.
2. I do not think that Talrand is a tier 1 commander not is he better than Azami. Like I said, combo is naturally better than control in multiplayer formats. But control can still hold its own and talrand should be tier 2.

Control like that does not hold it's own in a multi player setting. The reasons why were outlined back a bit.

Edit---

MTGTCG, do you have any opinions on the new commanders. Should we try to tier them prior to the new set's release?

I can definitely see Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim in tier 2. Orzhov control is already very powerful. I think Ayli just might be the most powerful commander yet for Orzhov control.

White and black give you plenty of access to big creatures, as well as other sources of lifegain so you can easily get enough life to use her second ability. Then you can start exiling all your opponent's biggest threats for just 3 mana each(and a small sacrifice, but this is black). You can also use her first ability to help keep you alive too of course, but I think it's her second ability that pushes her into tier 2.

General Tazri's very interesting. I'd say tier 3 for now.

Mina and Denn, Wildborn is a bit more flexible than Omnath, Locus of Rage, so I'd say the upper end of tier 3.

General Tazri: I agree that tier 3 is probably an appropriate place. The anthem effect is good and tutoring for anything you need (esp since there's at least one infinite combo with an Ally) is very good.

Mina and Denn, Wildborn: This isn't very good imo. Tier 4 MAYBE tier 3. Green doesn't really need help ramping from the commander. Trample can be given much easier. Triggering landfall is alright.

Jori En, Ruin Diver: Might make it into tier 3. Cheap cost, U/R has plenty of cards that can allow it to operate at instant speed (in some kind of control shell) which is what I envision it being.

Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim: I see her being under the power level of Teysa (3 drop) and Karlov of the Ghost Council. Tier 3 is possible, the restrictions are somewhat annoying.

Kozilek, the Great Distortion: Tier 4 is likely. Lack of colors, Annihilator and straight card draw all combine to make him less impressive than his original card. The counter ability is unreliable at best because of the ranges in card costs. Only semi-reliable in more competitive metas which ironically he won't as well suited for (Due to cost/boardwipes etc).

Linvala, the Preserver: Lacks synergy with pretty much anything. Does bring stuff to the table but is definitely going to be the "backup body" described in tier 4.

Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet: Might be able to get to tier 3 on a vultron/semi-Vampire/Zombie tribal. Problem is that Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief does this much better and she's tier 3. So at the very least he's the lower end of tier 3 or high end of tier 4.

Brago shouldn't be a tier 1 Commander because it usually puts a stasis-like effect on the board on turn 5 which is 1 turn away from the turn 4 criteria of tier 1 decks. Also decks like 5c hermit Druid(if y'all ever decide to add it to the list) should be in a tier of their own as they consistently go off on turn 3.

I'm personally curious as to why Braids, Conjurer Adept is in Tier 5. She's certainly not a placeholder, and brings serious advantages to the board. She seems much more Tier 3.5 fitting the description, powerful but slow and can be shut down with the right timing.

Braids has been discussed previously, just don't think she got moved up yet.

Brago can lock the board starting on turn 2. He can also combo off with Strionic Resonator as early as turn 2 with a God hand, though turn 3-5 wins are much more common. When built correctly, he's only slightly weaker than Derevi: the premiere Prison build and one of the strongest decks in the format. He's most definitely worthy of his Tier 1 placement.

Yea I did not had a lot of time to update recently, I will try my best to read through all the comments and update, sorry guyz!!! :/

Also, what are your thoughts on the new OGW commanders?

Not too much time for detail, I will just put a number of my opinion.

General Tazri 3/4

Mina and Denn, Wildborn 4

Jori En, Ruin Diver 3

Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim Really interesting one here. Tier 2 potential possibly.

Kozilek, the Great Distortion Seems really fun, more of an in deck card. Tier 3/4

Linvala, the Preserver No thanks tier 6

Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet Situationally interesting 3/4

@Didgeridooda

General Tazri is beast.

Certain allies become bonkers when you mass flicker them (Bala Ged Thief, Hagra Diabolist, Kazuul Warlord, Murasa Pyromancer, Tuktuk Scrapper); you have access to all five colors and some great tribal effects (Sea Gate Loremaster, Harabaz Druid, Agadeem Occultist, Cryptic Gateway); and you have an infinite combo that your commander can tutor for a part of (Turntimber Ranger + Xenograft/Conspiracy).

I could definitely see a version of this deck being T2. Check out: Link for more details

sonnet666 being super conservative with that one because I plan to run him, and it would feel like I was going against the rules if I made a strong argument for him. I am super stoked about him, and did not want to overhype my rating. I ran Allies back in Zen, and everyone knows how much I love them. They are my only tribal softspot. As soon as he was spoiled I got a call from a friend about him, they know what is going to happen.

So with the new colorless basics and support coming with OGW, do you think that some of the colorless commanders will move around?

@Didgeridooda Fair enough.

And it's her, by the way.

@NinjaBunny01 I don't think it's likely. The addition of Wastes doesn't change much, since these rankings were made with the assumption that you could afford all of the expensive lands you needed to make the deck run anyway. And as for the colorless cards in BfZ and OGW, there haven't really been any that can move a whole color identity up a tier all by themselves.

Colorness's main problem has always been a lack of good removal and that it only gets access to color specific effects on overcosted cards. A single set or block is never going to introduce enough commander relevant cards to change that all on it's own.