If tendrils took so much to kill. How did grixis storm win so consistently before reservoir?

Grixis Storm's main gameplan was always Lab Man kills; Tendrils/Grapeshot were its backup plans.

That said, I don't like Reservoir nearly as much as Tendrils. Not only is it more vulnerable to removal, but "needing a storm count of 15" is a little disingenuous, because that assumes it's been on the table since the beginning of the turn. If you cast it as your ~15th spell, you need to storm up 8 more spells after burning 4 mana on it; not impossible, but harder. It also has less synergy than the aforementioned Tendrils/Grapeshot plan, both with each other and cards such as PiF and Remand. Also, if Reservoir gets removed after your Lab Man gets removed, you actually lose, whereas the deck has a number of ways to keep going if someone takes out your storm spell.

As for the Yidris discussion, I really don't like the concept of revolving the deck around getting a hit in and then using your regular gameplan as a backup plan; I much prefer the deck to have Storm as its #1 goal, and the general as a backup plan. It's generally much easier for most decks to deal with your creature than the storm combo, the storm combo's much more resilient across multiple turns, and it's a harder plan to backup into if your main gameplan is hitting with Yidris. I think Yidris is pretty good, and potentially better than Jeleva as your primary backup plan (along with giving access to Sylvan Library/Regrowth); however, I think revolving your deck around casting him T2-T3 is getting your priorities backwards. There's few ways to do so conveniently due to his restrictive cost and your high Island count for High Tide, and things like mana dorks don't really have a place in the deck (green should only be run for the couple cards that are absolutely gamebreaking).

I don't like generals starting in T1 on set release; there's SO much hype at set release that placing generals before testing just feels very wrong to me. Most of it's pure theorycrafting at this point.

I agree with Lilbrudder on Breya; she's fantastic, and priority order 1. Bomberman 2. WGD is correct as well. The Altar/KCI combos are fine for more casual games, but they're slow and clunky when you're talking CEDH decks. If you have to pick one, I also agree with Displacer > Deathmantle. Displacer's surprisingly a decent card, stopping random value creatures from getting free hits, as well as completely shutting down backup plans like Jeleva and Yidris out of Storm. Additionally, as mentioned, Displacer completely avoids GY interaction, something that both of your other primary combos rely on completely.

I also agree with Lilbrudder and Sleazebag on Thrasios. The fact that people are sleeping on the fact that he's largely a better Tasigur, and even has his Partners as backup plans.

Also, when are Kaalia and Titania getting bumped? They're looking worse and worse (relatively speaking) with each new Commander that comes out. I don't even like Melek there, as Mizzix is a lot better at Storm because of his high mana cost. He's so much more clunky than his T2 UR counterparts.

Lilbrudder, have a list for Breya? Been brewing a bit with her myself and looking for some inspiration. :)

Thank you for the explanation. I definitely agree that tier two needs some housecleaning.

Tolluf: Here you go. The primer is still a ways a way from completion. Double Trouble

On the topic of Breya,i've been thinking of 1. Bomberman 2. WGD as stated above, but was wonmdering if there was a need to fit in a third combo? Potentially something like labman with doomsday since doomsday is already in the deck and i pile such as Predict -> Laboratory Maniac -> Gitaxian Probe -> Lion's Eye Diamond -> Yawgmoth's Will...no it doesnt have to be this exact pile just throwing an example.

i feel like it isnt necessary but just throwing it out there.

I don't think there's much reason/purpose for including Lab Man in Breya. DDay has kills with both Worldgorger and Bomberman that don't even require or want you to run Predict.

Thought Scour -> Worldgorger -> creature -> Animate Dead -> Dance of the Dead wins, as does Thought Scour -> Lion's Eye Diamond -> Auriok Salvagers -> Animate Dead -> Dance of the Dead, and neither requires you to run any dead cards.

mtgThaen's list Breya, Etherium Shaper uses labman and I definitely think a 3rd combo is a good idea so long as its safe and avoids dependence on the graveyard. For now I am focused on two because I want to figure out the two primary combos and discover all the interactions and support cards. Once the shell is sound I may dabble with other secondary combos.

Kaaliageddon decks keep a lot of the other tier 1 and 2 decks honest.So many of the tier 1 decks don't exactly do well against an Armageddon effect with a 2/2 wonderful perma-sneak attack stapled to her.

While she is my favorite commander, I can say also a FC Prossh player, and soon to be DD Breya player (close to lilbrudder's list except more artifact shenanigans, I want to Paradoxical outcome alot ) that seeing Kaalia at the table is always worrisome.

So many decks can't do much through an Armageddon.

Kaaliageddon's fun, but I don't think it's much better than any of the T3 generals. It interacts with none of the top-tier decks in a meaningful way before resolving AND sticking a Kaalia, untapping, and resolving a Geddon. Half the T1-T2 generals should be winning by this point; the other half should have a way to deal with some part of this sequence (countering Kaalia, killing Kaalia, and/or countering Geddon).

It's a good sequence vs Yisan and the decks tuned to beat stax, but that's more a result of the inbred metagame than any kind of power level consideration. There are lots of decks in T3 that can beat the decks anti-stax decks in T1-T2, but that doesn't mean they're necessarily T1-T2 because they're not great vs the decks to beat or the decks that beat those decks.

Kaalia's best claim-to-fame was perhaps the best WGD deck in the format (even though she has no good way of protecting a fragile combo like WGD), but even that role's been usurped now that Breya's hit the table. I just don't see her role in the competitive meta anymore.

I won't get to involved in the argument, as per the rules. But I don't think tier 3 is right.

While I agree tier 1 decks are rough, they aren't totally unwinnable (with a bit politics needed sometimes)

Tier 2 are pretty reasonable to deal with.

I will say she isn't top of tier 2 but she would be a resoundingly in a league of her own in 3.

I don't think she'd be in a league of her own. There's been a lot of commanders that if you go back in the archive discussion people have said "are in a tier of their own" when it comes to tier 3.

A lot of the tier 3 generals are quite powerful if optimized, and Kaalia's no exception. Most of the mono-green decks goldfish about as fast or faster (robust T4-T5 kills, T3-T4 kills in the case of Selvala2) than Kaalia -> Geddon (even if the Kaalia player is lucky enough to hit 1 or 2 pieces of artifact ramp). The stax generals in tier 3 are still quite strong, like Marchesa and Teysa. Additionally, Ruric Thar becomes insane if the metagame devolves into pure Storm, and there are a few other generals who get to claim the same effect.

The bigger problem is that the floor on tier 2 is so low. Generals like 8.5 Tails, Noyan Dar, Silumgar, Jazal, Kemba, Bruna1/2, etc. cannot keep up with any of the above decks, and I have no idea how they're in the same tier. Some of this (I assume) is caused by the "tier crunch" and the fact that T3 really is not large enough to keep the top and bottom separated.

EDIT: I realize going back over my old post I say "any of the Tier 3 generals." This is actually wrong, and I'm talking about the top half if not the top quarter (what I consider to be T3). The reluctance to use more than 5 tiers really puts the crunch on what generals end up where. But I'd like to keep at least the first two tiers well-defined, because everything becomes a mess after you drop out of Tier 2 anyway.

I just looked at the definitions of the tier for the first time in a while (was out of town for 5 months, apparently stuff changed lol)To the new definitions, yes Kaalia is either Bottom tier 2 or top tier 3.I'll agree she Could be moved.However, I would like to say as a paper player, even in cEDH, she keeps quite a dumb goldfish decks in check.

To the other Breya brewers, is Graveyard hate not rampant in your meta's?

I'm not a fan of using Bomberman and George as the main wincon.

I am also setting up DD Breya ( I'll post a list when I get in it finalized) but found Lab man back to also be decent. Also, Do you think Infernal Contract is good enough?As of now I have George and Lab man.

Graveyard hate is rampant in most the metas I have been a part of. That doesn't mean they can always use it in time or it will stick. The beauty of the combo's is that they are so efficient that I don't need to use the graveyard except on my combo turn and white/red provides many ways to remove the graveyard hate. I am personally not a huge fan of labman for Breya because he is also a risky win condition. As of now if I were going for a 3rd combo I think Ashnod's Altar + Eldrazi Displacer +Breya makes the most sense as it is safe, compact and does not use the graveyard.

Nim Deathmantle also works in place of the displacer in that combo if you are looking to get a noncreature way of flickering. It does use the grave but im not saying to run mantle over displacer but having both yields more flexibility

nim death is also a more easily tutored, and has less relevant spot removal to hopefully avoid.

NarejED, Slivortal So then my last question is I am saying that Yidris would never be as consistent compare to a jeleva. There are next to no cards you could take out to add in green cards, that would make the deck better. so then why is Yidris being put in tier 1? The way I see it is Yidris is 1-2 turns slower then Jeleva. Running Yidris you won't ever be able to attack unless you run the protection to keep him alive. In a multiplayer environment and even in a 1v1 situation, Jeleva as a deck, can't be compared to Yidris. At least until I am told what cards to cut that wouldn't destroy the deck completely, as most of the cards NarejED said to take out, you may as well scrap the whole deck. You need add in green, now you have a lower island count, you are forced to lose High Tide which means that you are already screwing yourself over. Every card in Jeleva is a piece of the puzzle, if you remove something what you have to put back in has to be worth losing that puzzle piece. What would you add in that would keep up the consistency of Jeleva or possible make her better.

NarejED, Slivortal So then my last question is I am saying that Yidris would never be as consistent compare to a jeleva. There are next to no cards you could take out to add in green cards, that would make the deck better. so then why is Yidris being put in tier 1? The way I see it is Yidris is 1-2 turns slower then Jeleva. Running Yidris you won't ever be able to attack unless you run the protection to keep him alive. In a multiplayer environment and even in a 1v1 situation, Jeleva as a deck, can't be compared to Yidris. At least until I am told what cards to cut that wouldn't destroy the deck completely, as most of the cards NarejED said to take out, you may as well scrap the whole deck. You need add in green, now you have a lower island count, you are forced to lose High Tide which means that you are already screwing yourself over. Every card in Jeleva is a piece of the puzzle, if you remove something what you have to put back in has to be worth losing that puzzle piece. What would you add in that would keep up the consistency of Jeleva or possible make her better.

NarejED, Slivortal So then my last question is I am saying that Yidris would never be as consistent compare to a jeleva. There are next to no cards you could take out to add in green cards, that would make the deck better. so then why is Yidris being put in tier 1? The way I see it is Yidris is 1-2 turns slower then Jeleva. Running Yidris you won't ever be able to attack unless you run the protection to keep him alive. In a multiplayer environment and even in a 1v1 situation, Jeleva as a deck, can't be compared to Yidris. At least until I am told what cards to cut that wouldn't destroy the deck completely, as most of the cards NarejED said to take out, you may as well scrap the whole deck. You need add in green, now you have a lower island count, you are forced to lose High Tide which means that you are already screwing yourself over. Every card in Jeleva is a piece of the puzzle, if you remove something what you have to put back in has to be worth losing that puzzle piece. What would you add in that would keep up the consistency of Jeleva or possible make her better.

NarejED, Slivortal So then my last question is I am saying that Yidris would never be as consistent compare to a jeleva. There are next to no cards you could take out to add in green cards, that would make the deck better. so then why is Yidris being put in tier 1? The way I see it is Yidris is 1-2 turns slower then Jeleva. Running Yidris you won't ever be able to attack unless you run the protection to keep him alive. In a multiplayer environment and even in a 1v1 situation, Jeleva as a deck, can't be compared to Yidris. At least until I am told what cards to cut that wouldn't destroy the deck completely, as most of the cards NarejED said to take out, you may as well scrap the whole deck. You need add in green, now you have a lower island count, you are forced to lose High Tide which means that you are already screwing yourself over. Every card in Jeleva is a piece of the puzzle, if you remove something what you have to put back in has to be worth losing that puzzle piece. What would you add in that would keep up the consistency of Jeleva or possible make her better.

NarejED, Slivortal So then my last question is I am saying that Yidris would never be as consistent compare to a jeleva. There are next to no cards you could take out to add in green cards, that would make the deck better. so then why is Yidris being put in tier 1? The way I see it is Yidris is 1-2 turns slower then Jeleva. Running Yidris you won't ever be able to attack unless you run the protection to keep him alive. In a multiplayer environment and even in a 1v1 situation, Jeleva as a deck, can't be compared to Yidris. At least until I am told what cards to cut that wouldn't destroy the deck completely, as most of the cards NarejED said to take out, you may as well scrap the whole deck. You need add in green, now you have a lower island count, you are forced to lose High Tide which means that you are already screwing yourself over. Every card in Jeleva is a piece of the puzzle, if you remove something what you have to put back in has to be worth losing that puzzle piece. What would you add in that would keep up the consistency of Jeleva or possible make her better.

NarejED, Slivortal So then my last question is I am saying that Yidris would never be as consistent compare to a jeleva. There are next to no cards you could take out to add in green cards, that would make the deck better. so then why is Yidris being put in tier 1? The way I see it is Yidris is 1-2 turns slower then Jeleva. Running Yidris you won't ever be able to attack unless you run the protection to keep him alive. In a multiplayer environment and even in a 1v1 situation, Jeleva as a deck, can't be compared to Yidris. At least until I am told what cards to cut that wouldn't destroy the deck completely, as most of the cards NarejED said to take out, you may as well scrap the whole deck. You need add in green, now you have a lower island count, you are forced to lose High Tide which means that you are already screwing yourself over. Every card in Jeleva is a piece of the puzzle, if you remove something what you have to put back in has to be worth losing that puzzle piece. What would you add in that would keep up the consistency of Jeleva or possible make her better.

NarejED, Slivortal So then my last question is I am saying that Yidris would never be as consistent compare to a jeleva. There are next to no cards you could take out to add in green cards, that would make the deck better. so then why is Yidris being put in tier 1? The way I see it is Yidris is 1-2 turns slower then Jeleva. Running Yidris you won't ever be able to attack unless you run the protection to keep him alive. In a multiplayer environment and even in a 1v1 situation, Jeleva as a deck, can't be compared to Yidris. At least until I am told what cards to cut that wouldn't destroy the deck completely, as most of the cards NarejED said to take out, you may as well scrap the whole deck. You need add in green, now you have a lower island count, you are forced to lose High Tide which means that you are already screwing yourself over. Every card in Jeleva is a piece of the puzzle, if you remove something what you have to put back in has to be worth losing that puzzle piece. What would you add in that would keep up the consistency of Jeleva or possible make her better.

sorry I did not mean to double post.

WTF ok i posted like 10 times apparently. Who ever is the admin of this page please delete all the extras. My bad.