I will add that I'm not a fan of a sixth tier either, maybe just a re-working of tiers 3-4. Tier 5 is mostly fine as is, the difference between Lady Orca and Borborygmos is basically negligible, no one should run them as a general regardless. It seems to me that the uncertainty between tiers 3-4 comes down to inexperience with or against most of the generals. They might seem okay, but it's hard to be sure without seeming them in action (for example, I have literal no idea what an optimum Ertai, the Corrupted list looks like, so I wouldn't know whether it's tier 3 or 4 or the fuzzy spot in between).

I'm not sure what the solution to that is, but I don't think an additional tier is the answer.

NoOneOfConsequence what makes 6 ideal? Why not 7 or 8 tiers? 5 is a good number. Keep it simple. I guess we could rank them all, and just have a list top to bottom, but that is not what we set out to do. I feel that 5 tiers was ideal for what we were trying to accomplish here.

canterlotguardian Umm... okay... just linking that deck doesn't really put your point across very well. So who are you begging to disagree for you? Because you don't seem to be doing a very good job of it yourself, just dumping links as if I'm suddenly going to be mindblown and change my mind.

Yeah... I'm not sure how linking a deck tagged as being "group hug" is supposed to get your point across.

Didgeridooda: To your question, a question.

What makes five tiers ideal? Why not 6 or 7?

My reasoning for having 6 has already been kindly layed out by sonnet666. I'd appreciate actually hearing your reasoning to the contrary.

5 is a simple number. If we expand it now, it will keep expanding. The less tiers the better. Sure some are top of their tier, and others lower down. Too many tiers gums up the system. I preferred it how it was before. Everything had a place, and none were left out.

There really was no discussion on the change, it just kinda happened. I guess it is gigi's list, so he can do what he wants. I just figured a change like that would be talked about first.

I vote for 6 tiers. I like the "not playable" tier.

I suppose I can understand where you're coming from, regarding the lack of discussion on the change--it did happen rather quickly. Perhaps it would have been more pertinent to wait for it, so that it could be discussed more thoroughly.

Nonetheless, I see no indication that expanding the system as we have will cause it to somehow keep expanding. I daresay the system isn't presently 'gummed up' in any fashion, either--in fact, quite the contrary: The introduction of the sixth tier has done just the opposite, spreading out what was once too conveniently crammed together. It's for the better.

Some argument could be made for Sakashima the Impostor being Tier 2. I've been running a blink/bounce based deck using him instead of Roon of the Hidden Realm. Though he loses easy reusablity, instant speed, and ; he gains speed, removal dodge, multiuses per turn, and utility.

I've done well with my semicasual build. Took second in a versus tournament once. I haven't played much multiplayer with it though...

I digress, I've made my case. I do play this deck, so I won't go on too much. :P

Ucenna you don't really gain much from losing 2 colors. Green is one of the stronger ones in the format too, especially with creature based strategies. Remember we are talking from a competitive stand.

Though I have not read the new tier descriptions. They may have changed enough to allow for this, though I doubt it. The old one defined tier 2 by having the game in a lock, or won by turns 5 consistently.

@Didgeridooda: of course. My deck's only semicasual. Actually it's become too competitive for my playgroup, so I might have to retire it. Locking down via bounce/counterspell/exile/Control Magic on a stick was the wincon, though I can't say I'd hit it consistently on turn 5. Sakashima was primarily used to stall until I could get there.

The only true competitive commander was that tournament, and I can't say how strong my others opponents were. I beat a Karn combo under favorable conditions, but never had a rematch. And I got annihilated by my opponent's control deck in the tournaments finals. I win more matches than I lose, but casual seems more common than competitive. Perhaps I only have an upper tier 3 deck.

Also keep in mind, this is a multi player list. There is a reason we are trying not to have people advocate their own commanders. You are talking a 1v1 tourney that was not really very competitive from what it sounds like, and that is fine. We have to fully optimize lists to really get a good idea of where the commanders sit. This usually means decks with price tags of over $2.5k.

Classing a creature in a tier is not intended to insult anyone that runs them. If you play right, and build well I am sure you could win some of those tournaments with some tier 4/5 commanders.

The draw that Azami, and Arcanis provide are a huge advantage to the game state, and the do not require other outside factors to do that. When playing at a high level the more you need to function the less strength you have. Mono color is tough to be good enough for the top 2 tiers.

@Didgeridooda: That's fair. Having used Sakashima I think he has a fair share of utility, but he does have to work well with whatever deck he's in to truly be good. Looking back he's about on par with many other General's in his Tier.

Thanks for the time!

Hi all!

So, with the recent commander banlist being updated, are there major changes I should do right now? Prophet of Kruphix tasting the ban hammer, rule 4 being removed and Vancouvert Mulligan being official, does all this changes anything?

Given the EDH rules change just announced, which includes dropping rule 4 entirely; so you can produce any colour of mana, regardless of commander; I'm wondering whether Sen Triplets should be pushed into Tier 2, or maybe even Tier 1. Their ability is now a guaranteed extra hand by using opponent's hands, and their colour identity gives you plenty of your own card draw, as well as plenty of staple cards to use.

They now also basically have access to powerful ramp, as long as an opponent is playing a green deck(which is always in most playgroups).

thegigibeast: Dropping rule 4 makes Geth, Lord of the Vault slightly more powerful as you can now use coloured abilities on creatures or artifacts you steal, and it makes Thada Adel, Acquisitor and Sen Triplets significantly more powerful, as you can now cast any cards in any opponent's decks as long as you can produce the mana.

Totally true. Gonna open the votes for Sen Triplets!

She's for sure not Tier 1 material, or anywhere close. I suspect she's still solidly Tier 3.

The main reason for Sen Triplets to be played in competitive EDH is for her ability to prevent one opponent from interacting on your turn, not for the ability to cast their spells. Preventing the devoted blue player from countering your Doomsday / Ad Nauseam is her primary advantage. This slight buff to her secondary effect, while useful, isn't enough by itself to upgrade her. She's not strong for the same reason Bribery isn't used at high levels of play: she's too dependent on opponents having valid, useful spells for her to steal.

As for Vancouver Mulligans, I suspect they will have a strong impact on devoted combo decks, along with more expensive commanders. Narset, Enlightened Master, Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, and several other decks with more expensive commanders will take a massive hit as a direct result. It will also cause a French-like shift in power level, allowing weaker commander that have a low casting cost like Tasigur, the Golden Fang to flourish. It's too soon to say for all of them, but I can see a few direct results of it.

Maelstrom Wanderer --> Tier 2. He was already weaker than most of the current Tier 1 decks. No longer being able to Mulligan into an explosive starting hand is the final nail in his coffin.

Momir Vig, Simic Visionary --> Tier 2. Prophet of Kruphix was his main enabler. Without it, he will take up to two turns longer to combo out. He was already close to the bottom of the Tier, and this was enough to push him over the edge.

Sharuum the Hegemon --> Tier 2. Another commander long overdue for demotion. At six mana, she's no longer nearly fast enough with the new Mulligan rules to make it as a devoted combo deck. She was already under performing as a Tier 1 deck long before the update, and the recent changes have most certainly placed her far below the Tier 1 threshold.

I was waiting for you to comment NarejED ;)

If we could allow other people to edit decks I would allow you for sure! They should add this functionnality!

I, for one, am all for moving Sen Triplets up to tier two. Looking at her ability merely as a way to prevent an opponent from interacting with you during your turn is quite parochial, I feel--there's far more potential to such a thing. As a plus, the new rule decreases--or perhaps even completely negates--the need for them to run cards like Celestial Dawn (which, by the way, is now a much worse card in Zedruu decks) and Mycosynth Lattice. Although, frankly, Mycosynth Lattice is probably still strong (though risky) enough as a combo enabler to run anyways.

As for all the rest of Narej's proposed changes, I agree wholeheartedly with them, for the very reasons he himself provided.

I believe Sen Triplets should stay at tier 3. It might be the upper half of tier 3 but I don't see it hating out all 3 players. I understand that there's Paradox Haze but that leaves 3rd opponent on top of that.

Regarding Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker. I run shirei, would definitely rate her as tier 3. It's not necessarily true that the deck needs to be commander centric. If you build Shadowborn Apostle combo, then who cares if they come back at all? My deck in that vein runs a lot of mass reanimator and runs shirei for the occasional combo or some "maybe, who cares" resilience for apostles.

In my real Shirei deck, I can get shut down so often, even with a pretty solid stax strategy. I built my best version of Shirei as stax precisely because it is impossible to set up a winning board state in the early game. You need your mana to get shirei into play, to get creatures into play, and to get a sacrifice outlet into play before the real power of the engine makes an impact on the game. That being said, the simplest of hate cards (Scavenging Ooze, Containment Priest, Grafdigger's Cage), a single well placed Counterspell, or any form of removal for shirei that gets around equipment / aura protection (Cyclonic Rift, Devastation Tide, Merciless Eviction, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (w/o Champion's Helm)) can set you back by multiple turns. Any kind of color hate is very difficult to deal with, even running lots of colorless removal that is available.

Tier 3. Good commander, a lot of fun, completely wrecked by real decks. Please check out my decks if you don't believe that I am building Shirei correctly.

I appreciate this list and discussion very much

I would make the argument that Daretti is tier one considering it can often create unbeatable situations as early as turn four and it often beats other tier one generals.