It also made T1 draw-sevens WAY too frequent. Forcing your opponents to mulligan is as devastating as it is in current cEDH, but the T1 frequency meant that in addition to fast mana, players needed FoWs in their openers. Admittedly, this testing back with the old mulligan rules, so it was a lot easier to piece together your broken hand. The point remains that it catapulted blue (and black) even FARTHER ahead. (To some degree) the point of cEDH was to be vintage-lite (or an equally high level format). Without the banlist, it was ACTUAL vintage, but without shops decks since combos were fast enough to simply go under the hate.

TL;DR - If you want to take off the banlist, go play vintage.

What I meant was exactly that, most testing with no banlist was in the era of partial mulligans. So now with the new mulligan rule, I wanted to see if there would be any changes. Sorry if I had a bad idea ;-;

ill go sit in the corner and see where aether revolt moves my decks.

chaosumbreon87 - If I came off as too blunt, my apologies. I have been dealing with this conversation among three of my playgroups for months, and decided to break the format with a sloppy Scion deck just to prove a point. NarejED was not exaggerating when (s)he mentioned that 4-5 color decks would dominate the format.

I think no-banlist EDH would still have the same effect despite the new mulligan rules. The ability to (more easily/consistently) cheat on mana coupled with blue-red draw-sevens and black uber- card draw would force any and all midrange and control/stax out of the format. Maybe throw in some green or white for some creature combos and a Fastbond and you are left with a format of nothing but combo.

Oh dont worry. I dont take that much offense. I come from a stifle heavy meta so most times fear lets the game extend. Also, again, stifle is a really scary card sometimes. Not to all but it will always have valid targets. I concede your point that 5 color combo would dominate the format though.

anyone know of a cool Atraxa, Praetors' Voice deck?

define cool? I made HD but its just resolve Angel and you're guaranteed to win. Pretty glass cannon but I can win with like all of the triggers on the stack. Only good thing is that exiling lab man doesnt end the combo

whats the link

Here is the link.

atraxa some hidden gem interactions should remain there.

Anyone have anything that they want to see banned?

Like, personally I'd ban all of the following: Mana Crypt, Gaea's Cradle, Leovold, Survival of the Fittest, and Tooth and Nail, but I don't think the RC shares my views.

Boy, someone dislikes green haha

yay someone who hates green. Just in time for me to try making phelddagriff t3 (t2 is a pipe dream at this point but who knows) Lets see if I can prove Sonnet's point with him

I dont feel Survival of the Fittest or T & N to be that busted. There are many decks where I wouldnt even include them due to there being much better options. Why ban them?

If you're not playing the most super cutthroat meta but just down from that (where I normally play) where people are looking to finish games about the turn 12 mark, Tooth and Nail is one of those play it and win cards. Which in turn can cause a lot of people to rage, especially if their deck was just starting to "get into the swing of it".

I really want Recurring Nightmare to be unbanned.

Hey I'm building out a Tana, the Bloodsower + Silas Renn, Seeker Adept stax list right now and I was wondering if I could get some more eyes on it to see how I'm doing. Link I haven't seen any around and I think it has some potential so I'm trying to give it a shot. This is the first real stax deck I've put together though so I'm not quite sure how it's coming along. Any constructive criticism would be very welcome. Thanks in advance.

Lol, I hadn't realized green and me didn't get along so well. Maybe I better add some rationale.

Mana Crypt is basically two colorless mox on one card, and I really don't see how that's ok. Lots of arguments against this and Sol Ring, but Sol Ring is ubiquitous enough that I'd rather just deal with it's more expensive and busted brother.

Gaea's Cradle with mana dorks is about the same level of speed as Tolarian Academy with affinity. I don't see how one is ok when the other isn't.

Survival of the Fittest is as many tutors as you want for any green based graveyard deck, and it is ridiculously easy to combo off with it. It isn't as busted as a lot of cards that are current legal in EDH, but it ruins the singleton nature of the format in a way no other tutor comes close to. Honestly, if you resolve this and don't win within one turn, you're either at a table full of hyper competitive T1 control decks, or you don't know what you're doing.

Tooth and Nail is a nine mana sorcery that says "I win the game." I just don't see how that's ok when stuff like Worldfire, Upheaval, and Coalition Victory aren't.

My thoughts on Leo have already been expressed by people higher up in the thread so w/e.

To be fair to the other colors, I could also come up with pretty decent arguments for banning Necropotence, Ad Nauseam, Doomsday, and Hermit Druid, but I didn't feel like going overboard. Plus, banning all of those would make Storm undoubtedly the best deck in the format, and trying to control Storm with a banlist would be way too restrictive. The whole thing would end up being super meta-warping, and probably is a terrible idea.

Lilbrudder, as a reanimator player Reoccurring Nightmare definitely makes me salivate too, but I can kind of see how the non-interaction issue is relevant...

HarroHunter: A man after my own heart. Stax in that combo is one of the first things I thought when I saw Tana. Here's the list I've been working on if you want ideas: Tana sans white mock up. It's still pretty rough on my end too, but this is the first time in while I've been exited to build something that came out of the commander pre-cons. I'm pretty stoked actually.

Because of the tokens nature of the stax plan, I think some must include cards are probably Cryptolith Rite and Earthcraft to break parity, and Beastmaster Ascension to beat face with. Also, Shivan Harvest is super sweet in this deck to go after your opponents' resources.

I'd suggest cutting stuff like The Abyss and Impact Tremors. Going after your opponent's resources is probably going to be more effective than incremental damage or incremental creature killing. Maybe some MLD card in their place? Or a Strip Mine & Crucible of Worlds package?

Also, I'm not sure yet, but it may be worth looking into whether might be a better color identity for Tana. White has by far the highest density of land denying Stax cards, but I'm not sure if it's worth giving up Black's tutor power. I decided to try to build the sans-white version first since Silas is infinitely more useful than Ishai, Ojutai Dragonspeaker, but it's still something to consider I guess.

sonnet666 I completely agree with those 5 cards. The prices on Crypt and Cradle add to your reasons, but since adding 5 cards to banlist would be crazy, I think that they should just take off Coalition Victory, Worldfire, Biorhythm, and Sway of the Stars for consistency alongside the unbanned Tooth and Nail, Sorin Markov, and Magister Sphinx.

Also, I think they could take off all the scary combo pieces that combo with only 1-2 cards if they ban the fast tutors in their place. Any card that can tutor for a wide range of cards at 3 mana invested or less. More people get salty about someone tutoring up an infinite combo, not necessarily having one in their deck.

I think it would be a start, because tutoring destroys the feel the format is supposed to have regarding consistency I think.

This is all coming from someone who plays in a tier 3 environment, which is actually what I believe to be the most common worldwide for the format. I don't think a tier 1 playgroup or a tier 5 playgroup are either as likely to be encountered than a tier 3 playgroup. As for whether or not the average leans more to tier 2 or 4, i couldnt say, as even mine fluctuates pretty dramatically.

But anyways, I think banning Crypt, Cradle, Leovold, and all the best tutors to take off Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Painter's Servant, Coalition Victory, Biorhythm, Worldfire, Sway of the Stars, and Braids, Cabal Minion would be a step in the right direction.

Im ok with mana crypt getting banned since it is so unbelievably powerful that any deck that does not run it is significantly worse as a result. Cradle is another story. Yes it is a very powerful card but it's not for every green deck. it's a card that also promotes diversity since it rewards rewards you for going all-in on a creature based strategy, which is significantly weaker on average than a spellslinger deck. Why you guys want to ban a card that bolsters weaker decks confuses me.

Banning multiple fast combo pieces and a good portion of the best tutors in the format would be an unmitigated disaster. It would literally destroy half the competitive decks in EDH (ex. Momir vig) and any commander whose combo was not deemed offensive would instantly become horribly overpowered. These proposed changes would also push many people away from the format. Seriously why would anyone spend the money to get into this format only to have a deck you spent months or even years crafting taken away by an arbitrary banning? It is one of the many reasons why modern is dying. I stopped being interested in modern after birthing pod was banned, and it was a nightmare when they banned splinter twin. Seriously leave the format alone.

Coalition victory is to easy a win; Biorhythm is busted, board wipe, 1 creature, u win with it; worldfire is bad because it puts everyone at 1 life which is stupid; braids is not fun to play against and is op; emrakeul is debateable, he is bad only because of cheating him out; painters servant has more combos than any other card in magic and some really busted ones at that; sway of the stars is also debateable, restarts the game at 7 life which is bad.

I've always hated banning talks. It always ends up being a very emotion drivin discussion with most ban suggestions coming from "well I have a hard time beating/playing against X so it must be broken".

As for Mana Crypt it's fine. It's an accelerant no different than Sol Ring and a host of other ramp options. If we start taking those out the format devolves into Duel commander.

As far as fast starts? That's just luck for you.

I agree and have no problems with Mana Crypt. I just wouldnt be upset if it were gone since it would free up more card slots for other cards to be used in decks. With very few exceptions every CEDH deck should run a minimum of Chrome Mox Mox Diamond, Mana Crypt and Sol Ring. I enjoy fast starts as much as anyone, but its stinks to know that if I make a deck that has literally nothing to do with artifacts, it would just be better if I added those cards. I would prefer to have a bit more card choice flexibility in my brews

I've had issues making Chrome mox work in my most recent 4c brews. It's hard to make it work when you are exiling a mono colored card but playing a 4 color deck..

I feel like Chrome Mox is limited to 1-2 color decks with less use as you go up in numbers of colors.

I'm still not with you on Gaea's Cradle Lilbrudder. Sure, if you go all in on a creature based strategy it will reward you with 10+ mana, but I'm more bothered by green based combo decks that can run it and mana dorks for acceleration and get to combo mana on turns 2-4. That's not really a creature based strategy, you just happen to be using accelerants that are also creatures.

viperfang4, I think all of those cards should stay on the banlist, but it's worth pointing out that Painter's Servant actually doesn't have that many combos. The Grindstone combo is actually pretty mediocre in competitive metas. The real reason it's on the banlist is because it bothers people when you run it with Iona, Shield of Emeria as your commander.

I am thinking Zedruu the Greathearted should be moved to tier two instead of tier 3. I have seen her keep up with the tier 1 decks with that amount of enchantment an pillow fort she can do. Also seen her artifact ramp pretty hard to go off faster. She can shut down games with Hive mind/Enduring ideal. Ive seen a build that uses sensei divining top and brainstorm and use cards like terminus/entreat. It more of a control miracles build that can do a lot of harm.

It looked like an impressive build and not one that I have seen before.