sonnet666 Thanks for the suggestions most of those are definitely going in. And yea this whole time I've been thinking about how I'm missing out by not having white. Ishai is just so bad and Silas is actually useful for recurring stax pieces but I'll end up building both lists probably anyway.

Ok, couple of things.

First, the monitory value of a card should never be motivation for a ban, end of discussion. Just because you can't afford it does not mean it should not be legal in the format. I know that half the stated reason for the Moxen, and Lotus, being banned are their price point, but frankly, that's a bullshit point. The Moxen and Lotus are banned because they are fast mana with no drawbacks. Period. If price were a deciding factor, cards like Timetwister, Tabernacle, Moat, Candellabra, Mana Crypt, Chains of Meph, etc. etc would already be long banned. Because they're not, we can safely conclude that the rules committee doesn't care about the cost of a card when they're thinking about bans.

Second of all, no one is thinking about Iona when they talk about painter bans. The card is straight up busted for many different, and better, reasons than Iona.

Third of all, mana crypt doesn't need a ban. Yes, random fast stars suck when you don't have em, but they're fun as hell when you do. The format should either ban all rocks under 2 mana (probably would make sense), or leave the ones that exist and aren't yet banned alone. Banning crypt and not vault or ring doesn't make sense, and as they have been reprinting ring continuously over the last few years, they probably don't feel the need to ban crypt.

And Gaea's Cradle is easily solved with a board wipe or a strip mine effect. Absolutely no reason for a ban, just build your deck to combat it if it's in your meta. If you're losing to it and you aren't willing to change your deck a little to beat it, well, that's on you, not the card. And sure, sometimes you play cradle and you just win the game. But guess what? That happens with every other card in the format. That's basically the definition of EDH. Card doesn't deserve a ban for that.

@sonnet666:

Gaea's Cradle is nowhere near as busted as Tolarian Academy. When was the last time someone was able to tap Cradle for 4 mana on turn 1? Unless you somehow manage to get down a haste enabler, two green sources other than Cradle itself, and have a hand full of 1-drop dorks, it's not going to happen, whereas all Academy needs is Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond, or Mana Crypt and any combinations of net 0-2 mana rocks to run away with the game. Academy is to Cradle as Black Lotus is to Lotus Petal. Academy is a snap include in every single deck that could possibly run it, even enabling entirely new busted decks and strategies on its own. Cradle... Cradle is only playable if you're already running a creature heavy deck, usually >25.

You hit the nail on the head with Tooth and Nail. It costs nine mana. Nine. By the time you're able to cast that, the game probably should have already been over. At that insane cost, an "I win" button is fine. Your argument against it using Coalition Victory and company don't make sense, because none of those cards should be on the banlist in the first place. They're all quite bad in comparison to options available in the format such as Laboratory Maniac.

Still tho, Mana Crypt should be banned. It's "downside" is barely relevant. It's really just two moxen stapled together.

Sol Ring should have probably been banned too, but at this point it's not worth talking about since it's in every commander pre-con, and Mana Vault is sometimes just a colorless Dark Ritual if your deck doesn't support it well, so I generally don't bring it up in banlist discussions.

And couldn't you make that same Gaea's Cradle argument for Tolarian Academy? My problem with it isn't that it can't be answered, it's that it's too easy to get to "I win" mana in combo builds before anyone can get to answer it. That kind of acceleration really shouldn't be on a land.

And just to be nitpicky: A couple of things means two things. That was four things. That's two things too many.

NarejED:

"because none of those cards should be on the banlist in the first place."

...In your opinion.

You're a competitive player. (Stop me if I'm wrong.) In terms of cEDH I win buttons like Tooth and Nail and Coalition Victory are no big deal. If you have nine mana in cEDH you deserve to win the game.

Problem is, Commnader is a social format and has to support different levels of competition. You call that inconsistency and say cards should come off, but that's because you're looking at it purely competitive viewpoint. The thing is, the banlist doesn't have the luxury of doing that. The banlist has to serve all types of play.

A Sway of the Stars is super problematic in a game that's being played for enjoyment, because it takes everything that happened in the game up to that point and makes it as if it never happened. It invalidates the player's experience by saying the fun you were just having doesn't matter, because we're just going to restart, and the game we're restarting to is going to be short and miserable. People's definition of fun does vary, but making people's experiences irrelevant is pretty un-fun for most people, and that is why Sway of the Stars is on the banlist. (Same with Worldfire, Upheaval, etc.)

To me (and I think to a lot of other people as well) Tooth and Nail does the same thing. If it resolves it says that whatever game was being played is over, and this guy won because he happened to have this one card. The end.

That is why I think it should be banned. I know it's not a problem competitively.

Tolarian Academy can have the same argument as Gaea's Cradle yes, but as NarejED pointed out, it's all about speed. Tolarian Academy can run away with the game starting turn 1, and in order to answer that, you have to use your precious artifact removal on free or one mana rocks. That isn't efficient, or even effective, let alone consistent.

Gaea's Cradle isn't going to really start making a difference until turns 3 or 4, and by that point, the board wipes are coming into play.

It's super powerful for a relatively small investment, but it's also much more vulnerable to disruption than Academy.

As far as Survival of the Fittest, Tooth and Nail, Deadeye Nav, Conc Sphinx, Craterhoof...frankly, I think they should all be banned. They're all auto includes in 98% of all edh decks of their color, and make the game uninteresting. I think enablers such as Mana Crypt and Cradle are fine, it's the boring auto includes that need to go imo.

I'm more of a fan of banning palinchron than Deadeye honestly. Yes you still have Perigeine drake but it doesn't have the ability to go off with high tide, a mana doubler, or phantasmal image.

An effective mana cost of 0 makes it pretty busted and is a pain to remove since he can just be bounced for 4 in response.

Deadeye does some silly stuff but I feel like he's just a more expensive eldrazi displacer.

I think the fundamental problem with talks of bans is that EDH isn't a format defined exclusively by power level and balance. Banning for balance is hard enough, but when you add in varying design philosophies and player experiences, the feat becomes impossible. Pretty much all common arguments for card placements on and off the list are based on grains of truth.

Besides, as much as we love cEDH, I think it would be foolish for us to claim that the format right now is "health" in the common sense given that some colors and archetypes are far superior to others at high-level play. Even so, that's not a convincing enough argument to start warping the format in hopes of achieving something closer to what is traditionally considered to be "healthy."

Balancing EDH is a lose-lose situation most of the time.

That was very well said.

Deadeye Navigator is much better than Eldrazi Displacer, it can protect itself by blinking itself. The only time you can interact with it is while it has to choose its soulbond trigger basically. It also has a lot of busted combos with it. It is very high up the watch list. The general consensus here (and in many other forums) is that Leovald needs banned, I hope the ban comity listens.0 drop rocks are really good, pushing busted, but they probably won't ban any.Cyclonic Rift is another card pretty high on the watch list. It's just something blue should not be able to do. Even stuff similar in other colors costs more mana and has a lesser effect like In Garruk's Wake. Each opponent losing all nonland permanents is not a thing on any other card that I can think of (could be wrong), especially on an instant. Ruining everyone's board state but your's is an annoying effect, they are nearly guaranteed a win after it goes off in playgroups not going absolutely cutthroat.

So, I have been working on a Teysa, Orzhov Scion deck. I think she should be moved up to tier 2. She basically does the same thing Saffi Eriksdotter does, but with equally as good ramp, better tutors, and more infinite sac/enter combos available. I have searched through a lot of the decks for teysa on here and I have found some competitive ones, but not really as cutthroat as what I am making right now. I would love some suggestions, trying to cut some more cards off and it will be finished: Teysa's Darkest Hour.

What I meant is that without the infinite mana outlets like palinchron Deadeye doesn't do a whole lot more than displacer other than flickering something for a lower cost.

Deadeye really shines with palinchron and Drake, without those he simply becomes a flicker engine.

Are people still afraid of Deadeye combos in this day and age? I haven't seen a deck worth its salt that used DEN combos since the Partial Paris rules change. Palnchron might still get used in a few places like Animar and JVP for its utility value, but the combo is just too slow to be good. Same with C. Sphinx to a lesser degree. It was never really an auto-include, and since the rule change, the number of Commanders Sphinx is run with has dropped to the single digits. It's effect is extremely nice, but six mana is a huge investment when you can't consistently sculpt your hand to get it out turn 1-4.

last I knew Epoch's damia runs DEN still.

Also, that pair sees a lot of play in T2-3 so it makes sense for people to complain about it

If you don't have access to white and you're using TaN then DEN makes the most sense. It's still a really solid card, just expnesive if you have to hard cast it.

It has nothing to do with being "afraid" of Deadeye. It's that I (and I assume everyone else who plays it) don't always play cEDH, and when I'm not, I don't like seeing him show up. Same with the other cards I listed, as well as some other. They get old, fast, for anyone who plays edh for more than a few months, and I would like them gone just so you don't have to dedicate 10-15 slots to them in any edh deck you make in those colors.

I get that if those cards were gone, we'd just be jamming the next best cards in as the "best 10 cards of this color for general purpose, non-cEDH, decks". But I think the format could use a rotating banlist. Every year, kick out cards like craterhoof, academy rector, conc sphinx, for like six months/year, and then bring em back and take a few others out. Keep things fresh. I don't think this makes sense with mana rocks/lands. I do think it makes sense for general "goodstuff" includes.

Why are people still afraid of DEN? This card is nowhere near as broken as people make it seem. It doesn't say "can't be countered," nor does it say hexproof, indestructible, or "you win the game." You need minimum 8 mana to play and protect Navigator, at least 3 of which have to be blue sources. DEN also does literal nothing without another creature, making him useless on a wrathed board. I'm really tired of people trying to kill DEN when he hits the table, but don't care when the likes of Rhystic Study drops on T3. Seriously guys, get your priorities in order (not talking about anyone here, just my LGS.) Navigator is a good card, one of my favourited in fact, but he's far from broken, and there are many situations where I'd rather have Divination than a 6 mana 5/5 with no relevant abilities on an empty board. Sorry if this sounds rant-y, but the casual perception of Navvy has begun to really get me riled up over the years.

And scene.

Casual perceptions are funny. I can play hanna, ship's waifu in a pod with a semi-tuned animar deck and receive hate. On the flip side, i sometimes pilot the most overtly powerful deck on the table and get handed wins.

Threat assessment in edh is hard for new players. Simple as that.

That's why I was suggesting Palinchron is worse, DEN is just the enabler where the problematic thing is palinchron.

A... we'll call them a friend... brought up an excellent point on Discord earlier today about some of the commanders in Tier 2: "Can Shattergang really keep up with the likes of Leo, Tazri, Zur?" It made me remember something. We defined Tier 2 as the following: "Less powerful than the tier 1 decks, but still quite strong, these can definitely hold their own against tier 1 decks." However, at least recently, it seems blatantly clear that a good number of decks currently in Tier 2 don't satisfy this condition of being able to hold up against top-of-the-format decks. Some that jumped out to me and my friend during our discussion were Shattergang Brothers, Titania, Protector of Argoth, Riku of Two Reflections, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Saffi Eriksdotter, Child of Alara, Melek, Izzet Paragon, Kaalia of the Vast and Roon of the Hidden Realm.

I personally delved into Shattergang, Riku, Kaalia, and Roon. I can agree that Shattergang and Kaalia should absolutely be demoted to Tier 3. Gang just isn't up to snuff. As a stax deck, he's too slow on the locks, doesn't break parity well enough, and doesn't have access to powerful enough win conditions to cut it. Prossh is just better as a stax commander.

I gave Kaalia more time and chances than I should have, building and rebuilding her deck, testing various combo finishers and win conditions. I defended her Tier 2 status far longer than was proper. It's clear that she isn't there.

Riku and Roon are both debatable. Neither have received proper attention from competitively minded players. As is, they're both borderline, but could probably jump up significantly given a dedicated, experienced deckbuilder/pilot.

As for the others I named off, I haven't had much personal experience, but from what I've seen from lists, and from playing against others online, I feel they could all be safely demoted. Titania doesn't do enough, plus she's in an extremely limiting color identity for a commander that wants to play stax. There's really no reason to play Oloro at all when Zur exists. The lifegain isn't super relevant, and he should never be cast. Saffi is too slow as a combo deck, and there are much better options for stax. Child has never been a great commander, and we already have Tazri, Scion, and Sliver Queen occupying the number 1-3 best 5C combo positions. Any can be thrown in with minimal support (<10 cards) and be significantly better. Melek is simply a weaker Mizzix after Partial Paris.

Please discuss and vote on each of the commanders named above. I'll try to tally up the results in one week's time for a consensus.

Edit: Somehow double-posted that monstrous text wall. Disregard.

Again, I ask why is Rashmi in tier 2. She's in the same spot as those you just listed. She takes too much effort to line up a consistent poor man's cascade, and drawing a card once per turn is okay if your goal is to durdle, but it's certainly nothing I would say could compete with the big bads of the format.

I would agree with shatterbang, oloro, child, melek, kaalia, and roon. Rashmi, riku, and saffi are still debatable, the saffi deck may not be full optimized, rashmi has quite a bit of topdeck stuff, and riku has quite a few degenerate strategies. I think Sen Triplets should also be moved up to tier 2 with the recent lands change, i also am thinking Teysa, Orzhov Scion can get really busted. I would also like to see more on the zedruu deck listed above. And is Kraj too slow anymore?

I would agree with your recommendations re: moving those commanders down. By those same definitions though I think new Selvala and Ruric Thar need to have Tier 2 status. I see these decks in action almost every night on Cockatrice in competitive pods. They not only hold their own, they are often the number one threat or primary disruption concern for other decks.