I hardly ever use Alesha to proc the combo. She's a safety blanket, or something I can bait removal. I can pretty much use any mardu commander but Alesha works the best because if given the chance she can be the Reanimate I need.

Anyways, thanks for the analysis. I was kind-of puzzled as to how Shirei would work for infinite combos with regards to Alesha.

Femme, I went to check the deck, but it was all alters, and custom categories. Makes it tough for me to check so I closed it. I will copy, and play test it later on.

The best way to check Alesha's tier would be to compare to Kaalia in speed, and consistency. I have a feeling that Alesha is a tier 3, but will read your description, and test a bit before saying that for sure.

I'd say she's definitely tier 3. She can only reanimate one thing per turn, and the one infinite combo in the deck doesn't even involve her. (and there is only one infinite combo, just with different sac outlets)

@ Femme_Fatale:

First off, big fan of the alters. Glad to see someone else who takes the time to aqire alters for all the cards in their EDH deck.

When you say your Alesha deck wins turn 3-8, did you mean that she can goldfish wins in that time frame, or that she can win against other decks? Also, was that statistic from before or after Partial Paris was removed from competitive EDH? I did little testing, and was able to pull off a handful of turn 5 wins with the deck, but when I tested it against other decks (especially the blue variety) it more or less fell apart. The main problem was that each combo piece usually required a different tutor, Karmic Guide needing to go to the graveyard while Reveillark either required going to hand or having another reanimation spell. Finally, Goblin Bombardment and company usually required yet another tutor, as there wasn't enough redundancy to have one in hand with any reasonable consistency. This led to the deck's main strategy being rather slow and fragile when I played it. I didn't notice any useful early-game strategies like prison or stax (despite Alesha lending herself quite nicely to creature stax) either, so I can't imagine the deck is very good at preventing all of the much faster combo decks from going off.

Based on the deck you provided, I would have to vote that Alesha remains in Tier 3. She's significantly slower and weaker than Kaalia, and Kaalia is set in Tier 2 for obvious reasons.

Before Partial Paris was removed. Really good point there. That definitely makes this deck weaker. And I did both actual games and playtesting against The Slimy Druid of Death. The playtests usually ended up in 65/35 in Mimeo's favour.

Yes, you do need two/three tutors. You tutor for Buried Alive putting Karmic Guide, Reveillark and one other piece that is determined by whatever lock/hate is on the board, into the grave. Then you tutor for a sac outlet, and finally a reanimator or a haste grant and play alesha.

The "counterspell" package of course can change depending on what your meta is.

I was wondering what the new rules changes where going to do to the list. Also if you are still debating what tier list you are using I vote for 5, as it makes it overall easier to read. But as said above, I think the description needs a slight change to separate the list out. Lastly, great rid of all comments before the argument over tier began. It is getting a little crowded.

So I may have some bias but I want to make an argument for moving Omnath, Locus of Rage up to tier two. I have played games where I am public enemy number one and still won. The deck has so many ways it can be built, but I feel the more traditional ways are not optimizing the potential Omnath has. The deck has two colors and the two colors provide so much synergy for what the commander wants. What does Omnath want? He wants to play lands. What is green best at doing, playing lands. Green is in there to provide ramp, card draw, and it holds a combo piece for Omnath. What does red do? Red is considered the weakest color in edh but what red offers is absolutely everything Omnath wants. Red offers copy spells, allowing us to copy our ramp spells, recursion spells, and card draw cards. Furthermore it allows us to copy our opponents spells. Sure we don't have tutors, but copying a black spell gives us tutors. This effectively lets us run colors our deck doesn't not have. My Omnath deck has the potential to combo outside of its colors due to two cards that fit the theme of the deck, and an opponent trying to living death. What else does red offer? Red has the best sac outlet for Omnath, Goblin Bombardment, it has massive burn enchantments, Warstorm Surge and Where Ancients Tread, and it has removal, Chaos Warp and Blasphemous Act. Omnath has so much synergy with cards in those colors it is ridiculous. The only flaw Omnath has is he is a seven drop... But what does this deck strive at doing? Ramping HARD. My Ommath deck has multiple ways of turn 3ing him (all of them require Sol Ring but still). Now I know I run him as a commander so take everything I am saying with a grain of salt, but he has held his own against some tier 1 and 2 commanders. I haven't really seen another build that is going spellslinger with Omnath but I personally think that is the best way to take him and it makes him more competitive. If you want to see the build it is my only public deck right now. Keep in mind it is not optimized yet.

@ Aggro-Blaster: Omnath, Locus of Rage can indeed be strong if built well, but I don't believe he's tier 2 material.

As you yourself mentioned, 7 mana is a hefty sum. It's hard to get to quickly and consistently (especially after the mulligan rule change). Occasionally faster decks will either lock the board or outright win before Omnath even resolves. At his cost, he should be immediately winning either the turn he's cast or the following. That's more or less how the current Tier 2 commanders are. Maelstrom Wanderer, Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, Bruna, Light of Alabaster, Teneb, the Harvester, and just about every other Tier 2 commander with CMC 6 or higher usually wins the turn they're cast or the turn following.

Obviously, Omnath doesn't meet that requirement. Barring a perfect hand, he takes an average of about 3 turns to goldfish a win after he's cast. For that reason, I believe he should remain in Tier 3. He fills the requirements there much better.

Moving on. It's been a while since I made any kind of serious recommendations post.

There's been a lot of debate over the number of Tiers recently. The main argument is that, currently, Tier 3 is overly crowded. The easiest solution to this issue by far is to simply marginally raise the requirements of Tier 3, thus bumping a number of commanders down to Tier 4. This post aims to do that. At some point in the near future I will do a similar reevaluation of Tier 2.

TIER 3 RECOMMENDATIONS:

Aboshan, Cephalid Emperor --> Tier 4. This seems like an obvious demotion right off the bat. There aren't a huge number of playable cephalids, so the first ability, while theoretically useful, doesn't translate well to actual gameplay. The second ability is for sure useful, acting both as a Fog and as a potent prison tool with Static Orb, Embargo, and Meekstone. However, at six mana, Aboshan is already extremely slow. In addition, while he's good at tapping things, he's not terribly good at UN-tapping things, making him far more useful as one of the 99 than as an actual commander in that regard. Tier 4 seems much more suited to his power.

Akroma, Angel of Fury --> Tier 4. No reasoning needed.

Avacyn, Angel of Hope --> Tier 4. This suggestion was made a while ago. It would be great if we could more regular updates.

Baru, Fist of Krosa --> Tier 4. He requires an infinite landfall trigger combo, which is difficult and inefficient to assemble, especially in mono green.

Borborygmos Enraged --> Tier 4. He's extremely overcosted and takes far to long to win after resolving.

Bosh, Iron Golem --> Tier 4. See above.

Crovax, Ascendant Hero --> Tier 4. He's not quite strictly worse than Elesh Norn, but he's very, very close. Norn costs 1 more to cast and can't be bounced to hand, but she grants a larger buff, and doesn't help opponents running who are white creatures. She's significantly more powerful.

Dragonlord Atarka --> Tier 4. She's a big body that kills off a small utility creature or two when she enters. Not worthy of Tier 3.

Dragonlord Ojutai and Dragonlord Silumgar: These two are both very borderline. I personally vote move them to Tier 4, but I wouldn't vault anyone for arguing against that.

Dralnu, Lich Lord --> Tier 4 for glaring weaknesses already stated.

Gahiji, Honored One --> Tier 4. Politics. Not a viable strategy.

Garza Zol, Plague Queen --> Tier 4. She does very little, despite costing a whopping 7 mana.

Hazezon Tamar --> Tier 4. 7 mana for a 2/4 and a handful of tokens in one of the worst color combinations for sac shenanigans. Terrible.

Homura, Human Ascendant --> Tier 4. He costs a hefty sum just to cast. He then has to die to start generating value.

Hua Tuo, Honored Physician --> Tier 4. He has a rather interesting graveyard interaction, but overall he's too slow and limited to do particularly well from my experience.

Jazal Goldmane --> Tier 4.

Jolrael, Empress of Beasts --> Tier 4. He has an interesting ability, but it's cost is far too steep to be useful.

Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund --> Tier 4. Junk except in a few select metas.

Kodama of the South Tree --> Tier 4. There are some combos and cute interactions, but not enough support to merit Tier 3.

Kolaghan, the Storm's Fury: Another borderline card that I haven't seen in action enough to definitively place. Tier 4 seems fair.

Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient --> Tier 4.

Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero --> Tier 4. There are a fair number of rebels, but none of them are extremely powerful.

Lu Xun, Scholar General --> Tier 4. No explanation needed.

Mikaeus, the Lunarch --> Tier 4

Mirri the Cursed --> Tier 4.

Mogis, God of Slaughter --> Tier 4.

Molimo, Maro-Sorcerer --> Tier 4

Nylea, God of the Hunt --> Tier 4. She's alright with infinite mana, but there are far better outlets for that in green.

Ojutai, Soul of Winter --> Tier 4.

I'm running out of time, so I'm going to get a bit lazy.Patron of the Akki Patron of the Moon Pia and Kiran Nalaar Rasputin Dreamweaver Reki, the History of Kamigawa Sasaya, Orochi Ascendant Skullbriar, the Walking Grave Thraximundar Thrun, the Last Troll Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre Wydwen, the Biting Gale Xira Arien Yosei, the Morning Star Zo-Zu the Punisher all moved to Tier 4.

That's it for now. My only request is that, once you finish the latest round of revisions, it would be great if you could reset the discussion. Things are getting a bit insane.

I got to disagree with Avacyn to Tier 4. She's the perfect description of Tier 3: strong at casual tables but weak at the competitive level because of mono-color and a high mana cost. But at the kitchen table, she can easily beat other Tier 4s you mentioned.

@Aggro-Blaster It says in the rules not to pimp your own commander, that's where biases come from. Everyone thinks their commander is awesome, that's why they use it as a commander.

@NarejED I support all these changes, with the exception of Baru and Rasuptin. Baru is on the fence, but from what I've seen of him his mini-overrun ability is really good and easy to abuse. Does't need to go infinite to be a solid card, and can be good in token or fatty strategies. Rasputin has the infinite combo stuff, and is in a good guild to protect the combos. He's expensive, but can combo off right away. Xira moving down would make me a little sad but she's my general so I won't fight for that one.

@FAMOUSWATERMELON Avacyn is pretty bad. Costing 8 in white is a huge deal and her ability isn't as good as it looks, there's too much playable exile/tuck/bounce removal that blows her out. Even at casual tables she's underwhelming.

I run Xira Airen and agree 10000000% she is tier 4. She has decent colors identify but she doesn't do much.NarejED is pretty much right on all of those.

Jazal Goldmane can be consistent lethal aggro on turn 5, that at least should qualify him for tier 3.

Wydwen, the Biting Gale actually makes a wicked creatureless-control / voltron deck by combining cheap buffs like Hero's Blade and Glistening Oil with Wydnwyn's ability to dodge removal while also keeping mana held up for counterspells. She's not very popular, but an optimized build of her is very much T3.

Also: Still going to spend some time advocating for a six tier system, I just don't want to type out a long response right now. Thank you to everyone who took the time to voice an opinion on the matter, whether it was for or against. It's always nice to see your ideas discussed and taken seriously.

@ sonnet666: For Jazal, is that consistent lethal against one opponent, or a table of three?

I've had some experience with Wydwen (sadly I don't run her anymore) and she's an underrated control commander. The flash/blink ability is excellent in a deck that wants to function at instant speed.

I disagree with Dragonlord Ojutai being moved to tier 4. I agree he's borderline but even so hexproof, flying generals are hard to deal with and there are plenty of cards that can provide Ojutai with vigilance so he maintains his hexproof. Otherwise most of the decks played around him are control/stasis decks. You can also voltron him reasonably successfully. As a pure voltron commander I would say he's only slightly less effective than Eight-and-a-Half-Tails. No he doesn't have tail's ability to protect other permanents but he comes with built in attack evasion and a higher power.

NarejED, one player, but it's like a voltron deck in that you're like not going to lose any of your creatures in an attack, and will be able to kill the rest off just as easily in the following turns.

Here's a list, as well as a budget verion.

It's a really oddball deck though, and most people wouldn't think to play him this way.

I did more research on Wydwen, the Biting Gale, and I still advocate moving her down to Tier 4. She's an over costed body that protects itself at the cost of massive tempo loss.

By all accounts, she's fairly strong in French, but her power doesn't remotely transfer to multiplayer settings. Playing the typical control shell with a voltron finisher that most Wydwen lists are built as, I found that she struggled to goldfish most games before turn 15. Even after factoring in her game-slowing control elements, that's way too slow, even for Tier 3. She seems much more in line with Tier 4.

Also, what are the thoughts on Grenzo, Dungeon Warden? At face value, he seems like a janky commander for a Chaos deck. However, Doomsday is a thing. I've encountered a number of competitively-built Grenzo decks that goldfish hard-to-disrupt wins consistently by turn 5, with turn 3 and 4 wins not only possible, but common. Basically, the deck's main strategy is to ramp to 7 mana, cast Doomsday while Grenzo is on the field, and win via Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Zealous Conscripts or Mike and Trike. He seems like a potential Tier 2 candidate.

yavimaya_eldred Maybe, but in casual environments, there's not a ton of disruption, and the fact that she can blow up boards repeatedly for very little mana is huge. She's by no means very competitive, but she doesn't fit with the other Tier 4s who have fringe abilities.

Grenzo, Dungeon Warden? He's quite powerful, actually. I've even seen some lists that abuse Insidious Dreams with the ripple mechanic from Coldsnap to put the cards that they tutored to the top directly on the bottom, such as by tutoring Surging Flame to the top with four combo pieces directly underneath it. Doomsday is just somewhat more intuitive. Certainly worthy of tier two--under either system.

This is definitely in need of a good comment wipe.

I am currently working on the update, it will not be complete today but at least it will be better!

Tier five to six -> Done!

Tier 4 to 5 -> Done!

Tier 4 to 6 -> Done!

Tier 3 to 4 -> Done! Gonna look at the other comments. Thanks a lot sonnet666!!!