Jenara very well may be tier 2.5 or better. I dont know much about her to be honest. Do you have a list for her handy?

Karador and Tasigur are no longer tier 1. They are perfectly placed in tier 1.5 imo. Boonweaver is not as hot as it once was. Its card intensive, somewhat fragile, and slower than other top combos these days (bomberman and paradox engine/dramatic scepter say hi :-) Thrasios outclasses both by a fair margin for thier respective strategies, though both still have a niche so they don't go the way of Teneb.

The Mimeoplasm is well placed as well. Mimeo is weaker than Tasigur and SBT, which are weaker than Leo. It could really go either way I guess as Mimeo is pretty solid due to colors and his synergy with reanimator/nooze/HD shenanighans.

Do you guys think that Hope of Ghirapur good enough to make the cut for Alesha, Who Smiles at Death stax? It can lock out an opponent, but is the repeated mana cost and reliance on dealing damage worth it?

Hey all, I'm fairly new to the whole EDH-experience and was wondering if there are any recommendable Nin, the pain artists lists out there, because I suck hard at brewing. I love her artstyle and the colors and recognized she's fairly high on this list too, but I'm not able to create a decklist, where I don't end up with 50+ cards left I want to include as well. Help is very much appreciated. Thank you.

SnuKone chefsati has a Nin primer here

selvala combo's are very unique, which make them hard to deal with, similar to the Gitrod monster I feel she is actually leading the pack of tier two.

Alot of decks are going to change with aether Revolt but with Rishkar's Expertise and Paradox Engine coming out, I'd keep a close eye on selvala

Finally I had to point out that Selvala is as much a storm deck as a combo deck, making lack of non-creature tutors less important to the deck than to a normal combo deck

Gates88 - Great link! We needed a Nin decklist/primer for a while now. thegigibeast or NarejED, get in on this.

I think narejed's zur list should be the one featured on this site as it is slightly more optimized then the one currently posted.

What do you think of ranking the commanders inside of their tiers. Each tier is split up some way from best to worst.NarejED, thegigibeast

@theMarcus. That could be a good idea but I could see some arguments over placemants.

Yah but those are fun!

TheMarcus That is a good idea but I think the big restriction behind that is formatting. I'm not sure that tappedout is capable of having ordered items within custom categories.

IronBlackZepp Yeah, we wouldn't want people arguing on here. That would be unprecedented.

NarejED thegigibeast

How is my zedruu list now. Putting it up for tier 3 zedruu list.

Zedr(YOU), Zed(WHAT). Average cmc is under 3. Its more stax and controll

Let me know.

I know possibility storm is expensive cmc. But it's a lock piece

Of course people argue on here all the time. However I think giving the commanders ranking within tiers would make some people fly off the handle. I really don't think it is even possible to calculate.

Trying to rank each commander individually is just too subjective. I don't think that it's possible. And more than that you can tweak a deck to specifically hate on another deck more. This then skews results.

TheMarcus Gates88

I really like the idea, but it's also true that it would not be really possible to rank commanders like this, because as it has already been mentioned, one deck can be built specifically to hate on another one...

But if we agree on some placement (like with the 1.5 and 2.5 tiers), I could either create a new category to put those in or do some CSS magic to change the formatting (I'm studying in both front-end and back-end development, better at back-end but still not that bad at both). It would take some time to see how T/O is built though, but once I will have sorted that out, I will be able to change things as I want them and get a pretty nice formatting for this list.

What is your opinion on this? NarejED???

thegigibeast, it seems the rankings of each commander should reflect the rankings at a Nash equilibrium (I wouldn't be surprised if there's more than one in this game space, though). That is, yes, you could tune Ruric Thar to specifically hate more on Jeleva, but if that would reduce Ruric Thar's overall strength against the meta, then we wouldn't consider that build.

Ranking these commanders is an optimization problem, and there are at least several criteria we might optimize over -- some of which are in conflict. I think it's okay to accept that and tune against the generic meta 'out there'.

Ranking in order from best to worst is impossible. It falls apart right after the top. Who's second after Zur? Tazri? Yidris? Who comes after that? How do you account for rock-paper-scissors effects, meta dependent variables, and deck pilot quality? Who gets the final say on these arbitrary decisions? It's simply too subjective and tedious to be done.

thegigibeast: Can you replace a couple of my lists with newer/significantly stronger lists I have made since the new spoiler season. The new primers reference the old lists and other attempts at optimization, so if people like them, they still have access to the information provided in the old ones.

For Sidisi: A Banquet Fit For A Tyrant: Food Chain SBT Primer

You may find this one of particular interest since it was your idea to take Sidisi in this direction in the first place :-)

For Thrasios: Paradox Engine Storm: cEDH Primer

I have said this before, but it is worth repeating. HD combo is definitely NOT Thrasios' best flavor. It was my first attempt... nothing more. Seeing a Faygo brand version of my HD list on that "Other Tier List" feels extremely misleading to new cEDH players on what optimized Thrasios is capable of. They may conclude that Thrasios is a nothing more than a figurehead for a fairly obsolete combo. I moved on from that list a month ago. Even eggs tested better...If we find a better list, by all means use it (please not that doomtide list though, for many good reasons), but I feel very good about this list. It plays to Thrasios strengths well and is fast consistent and resilient. As with all my lists I will keep it updated as I learn more.

Updated my thought experiment for what stretching tier 1 and 2 would look like. Added what I thought tier 2.5 would look like, as well as a maybeboard of other commanders that mind end up in it depending on how low we draw the line. Link

If everyone is relatively satisfied with it, I'll update the main list in a few days, after the survey results come in.

Well If you want another Idea, how bout doing a top5 then top10 then top 20 ore somthing.Its easier to say that Zur Yidris And Tazri are all in the top 3 or so. We could do it like that. I dunno. But I don think that a little Brainstorming can do us any bad.

Without sounding to abrasive, I just don't see the need for it. Just like trying to rank each commander, it doesn't really add any benefit. Just because you're playing Zur doesn't make you unbeatable. And just because you're playing a "top 5" doesn't mean you cant lose to a "top 10". Or even a "top 20".

optimized competitive lists do win on average more than less competitive decks. This list does not consider a deck that hates a specific other deck. You can not rank hate decks and building a decl that hates a specific deck does not preform well at all in multiplayer where you can at best beat one other player. We rank decks that are built to be the best they can be and hating another deck is not the best a deck can be.

Then why is Gaddock Teeg in tier 2? Your argument is completely backwards, decks honed to the current meta are way better than decks that aren't. I don't understand the logic behind saying that a deck that isn't prepared to fight what it's going to fight is better than a deck that is. Of course a troll Melira, Sylvok Outcast deck for fighting Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon or a Soul Warden deck to fight Purphoros, God of the Forge aren't going to go far but I completely understand putting in a Fog or a Chaos Warp respectively if those to Commanders are in your meta.

Dunadain I kinda see your point but Gaddock Teeg is a bad example. What people are saying is that decks that are built to hate on a specific deck don't do well, but Teeg just hates on everyone. So he does fine because his strategy of disruption isn't just targeted at one deck therefore he doesn't have as much of a problem with decks that his hate doesn't effect.

fair enough but I quote: "(Gaddock Teeg) would be difficult to get an optimized list, because it is a hatebears deck, and it is heavily meta dependant. Every list would have to be adapted to different metas, depending on the decks played in your area." (emphasis added) sounds like a deck that is designed to hate on particular decks, granted not one particular deck but the truth is it still plays cards that shut down there own meta, playing Containment Priest when no one ever plays graveyard recursion or cheat into play stuff in your meta is a bad idea (that would be an interesting meta but my point stands)