"The deck felt extremely clunky when tested. I frequently had no significant plays before turn 3. Out of the five games goldfished, not a single one ended before turn 6"

Here's a picture of a winning boardstate i just got on my first try on turn 5:

You were probably playing it wrong.

Trust me, I'm very familiar with this deck. It tends to feel clunky because it's very commander centric, so the first few turns are always devoted to getting out an enabler and then Rakdos. (There's literally no other way to build the deck.)

Generally the trick to close out the game quickly is to always tutor up Knollspine Dragon as quick as possible.

If you like I can cut down on a few of the flashier spells for more interactive ones for the first few turns, but that is going to have to wait for another day since I've been up for 25 hours.

Also, since when is winning on turn 6 to slow for tier 3? It's supposed to be high tier casual. A deck that wins on turn 6 consistently sound fine for casual tables.

Any thoughts on the tier changes I suggested that you want to summarize?

Any feedback on the Karn deck I posted earlier would be greatly appreciated. I'm honestly not sure what could be done to truly make it better. The other Karn decks posted are either super budget, uncompetitive voltron, or focus on janky 4 piece combos. You could probably swap out a few cards due to personal preference, but maybe Karn should be bumped to tier 4 - because I put every reliable combo and tutor possible for colourless.

Maybe instead of running all of them, pick a few and focus on getting those pieces into play. Of course, I also have 0 experience with colorless edh.

I have a great experience of colorless EDH, since I play a Kozilek deck for about 2 years now, and all the decks I play are artifact decks, so I can help creating a better list for sure.

I will do that ASAP, review the deck, and tune my own Karn list just to see the differences. Karn was my first colorless commander, but now I play OldZilek, as I feel he can do the same things, but better and faster, while drawing cards and applying a lot of pressure to the table. But now that we talk about it, I am interested in building my Karn again.

My Competitive Kozilek Butcher of truth list.

Please consider it for the page.

TheGigiBeast's Competitive Kozliek Butcher of truth list.

lol.

I haven't looked through your list yet TronIsloveTronislife, so I'm not saying thegigibeast's list is better than yours (or vice versa), but when the guy who runs this page has a deck for a certain commander, and just mentioned that he runs that commander in the very last comment, then you might want to check his list out before recommending your own. Just saying.

(Also, I overuse italics. I know. I have a problem.)

Actually I have an even better list that is more updated post AER. Here it is:

Kozilek, Butcher with Juice

Commander / EDH thegigibeast

124 VIEWS

Updated to lower CMC even more. I can easily manage turn 4-5 wins with this in a 4-players pod, and since Paradox Engine it is even better.

The primer is from Juwdah on mtgsalvation, adapted it to tappedout to make it easier to read and currently updating it to reflect current list.

I think my list is more optimized, but as usual, I will let people vote cause for sure I am biased on this, but I would like some people to play test it for me.

sonnet666 NarejED what do you think about my list? The only notable exclusions are Mishra's Factory and The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale for budget restrictions, but apart from that I think the list is close to optimisation.

There are still some cards I would like to cut, like Scrap Trawler, and many I would like to test.

Paradox Engine is just way too beast. I just made an upgraded Sidisi storm with it:deck-large:new-sidisi-1 (Large decklink not working :( )

It's like there's nothing it doesn't make better. In here it's great because with it and Corpse Dance on Sidisi you get infinite mana, infinite storm, and infinite tutors. If you get off to a good enough start you can even tutor for it instead of Ad Nauseam. Think about that. It can be better than Ad Nauseam in ANT Sidisi. How ridiculous is that? (I suppose it's just AN Sidisi now that Aetherflux Reservoir is a thing, nut w/e.)

Watch it's gonna get banned and we'll have spent months coming up with these designs for nothing. That's gonna suck.

Anyway, I like your list quite a bit. I have no experience playing Kozilek so my insights probably won't be too detailed. As for not having not having Mishra's Workshop and stuff, why don't you just make a second deck and put them in? All the lists I've been submitting have been purely fantasy, and I'm sure NarejED hasn't built all of his. Just copy/paste the primer you wrote (which is excellent by the way) and add a note at the top that links back to the original. That's what I've been doing.

This might be a personal preference, but I'd also merge all your separate land categories into one. It's a little hard to read the way you have it, and you already go into detail about what all the lands do in the primer.

As for the deck itself, I'm just going to take issue with one card. Unwinding Clock seems really superfluous to me. I looked in your primer and you talked about using it with Null Brooch, Predator, Flagship, and Soul Conduit, but those all have been taken out, so really all you have that works well with it is Staff of Domination, Kuldotha Forgemaster, Coalition Relic, and sort of Grim/Basalt/ManaVault. Just six cards, three of which only give you mana, isn't really enough to warrant it anymore, IMO.

I also think Solemn might be a little slow here, and Oblivion Sower confuses me.

TronIsloveTronislife, I looked at your list too, and it also seems solid. You and Gigi run a lot of the same cards, so it's tricky to tell which one is "better." However I do think yours is running some cards that could be considered sup-prime, specifically:

Akroma's Memorial, Batterskull, Blinkmoth Urn (helps opponents), Darksteel Forge, Icy Manipulator, Mycosynth Lattice, Nevinyrral's Disk, Pacification Array, Planar Portal, Smokestack, Static Orb (seems like this is ONLY playable with Unwinding Clock), Tower of Fortunes, Cloudpost/Glimmerpost (basically taplands, replace with Wastes), Karn, Silver Golem, Silent Arbiter (won't bother many cEDH decks), Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger (he's mediocre without anhilator, and Eldrazi are the easiest thing for you to tutor), and Voltaic Construct.

A lot of these have high costs that, while you are able to pay, restrict how much you're able to do per turn. I know using Kuldotha Forgemaster to chain into Darksteel Citadel+Mycosynth Lattice+Nevinyrral's Disk, or Karn, Silver Golem+Voltaic Construct+Gilded Lotus is awesome and tempting, but when you start hardcasting them in a deck that's trying to win by turn 5, it gets a little less awesome, and chaining into Basalt Monolith+Rings of Brighthearth+Sensei's Divining Top or Staff of Domination+Metalworker gets the job done just as well with way less overhead.

Reminder: Never played Kozilek, my word is not gospel, don't quote any of this or be offended, your deck still looks like you put a lot of time / effort / quality into it.

Also I gotta vote for gigi in this case for that super detailed primer. That's really good to have on a sample decklist.

Thanks a lot sonnet666!! As said above, the primer is not from me and I am currently working to update it since I think it is quite well written and it would be so sad to let a primer like this die... So I am updating it to reflect the decklist.

Good idea to have another decklist that run cards I don't currently have, like Mishra's Workshop, gonna change that tomorrow. Thanks a lot!

Oh and maybe some cards will get cut as I rewrite the primer if they are not useful enough anymore and I can find some better cards in their spot (like for Unwinding Clock you stated).

sonnet666Thankyou for the critique, i value input but have you actually ever played a colorless artifact based edh before?

Mate im sorry but some of the things you have said arent quite correct.

Okay first of all Glimmerpost doesnt enter tapped, only cloudpost does. they also interact with Vesuva and thespian stage very well.

I cant stress enough how good they actually are. they are way better then the tron lands and alot easier to assemble strong mana advantage out of.

Also with storm cauldron you can be gaining between 1 to 8 life a turn if you have them together just off playing your lands. (or 2 to 16 life per turn for those of you who play alhammaretts archive) again just for playing your lands. they can also make clouding post, vesuva, and thespian stage tap for 4 mana each.

Unwinding clock is actually busted giving you activations of all artifacts with activated abilities additional times in your opponents turns. Like it literally gives you value off of over 50%of the deck.

and if you also have clock of omens you have a mini turn in everyone elses turns.

It can also save you against plenty of your own stax cards.

For example it can get completely busted with myr turbine if you also have clock of omens. it makes certain mana rocks almost infinitely better.

Also blinkmoth urn only gives your opponents mana if its (Untapped) the same is true for the effects of winter orb, Static orb, and storage matrix

Which is why i run cards like Pacification array, and icy manipulator. i am more often then not tapping down my own permanents so that im not affected by my own stax cards.

Akromas memorial is absolutely insane when your commander is Kozilek Butcher Of Truth, giving a 12/12 with annihilator 4 Flying, First strike, haste, vigilance, trample, and Proc red and black is great.

Its value is also very good when i have Karn Silver Golem on the field.

Batterskull makes Kozilek a 16/16 with Vigilance, Lifelink and Annihilator 4 i used to also run allhammaretts archive so gaining between 16 to 32 life every time you block and swing is fire.

Its also bouncable if you need cast triggers or if someone vandalblasts.

Smokestack is a card that requires a lot of finesse to play because of the way you can stack triggers and its also fire with Strionic resonator.

It is the reason Stax is called Stax in the first place.

Now in a deck that has 52 artifacts in it, do you really think that darksteel forge is without its uses? especially given the protection it offers from most artifact hate?

Especially considering that in a deck like this it is often a turn 2,3,4 or 5 play?

with mycosynth lattice having indestuctible on all of your own permanents is very strong.

I will concede that tower of fortunes isnt the greatest but it can be broken in so many different ways. giving you infinite card draw with a variety of different cards. or letting you draw 4 (or 8) (or 12, 16, 20, 24 and so on cards in a turn) (or in other peoples turns)

Karn and Voltaic construct both combo with plenty of other cards in the deck besides each other to the point i think it would be silly to not run them as part of the 99.

Silent arbiter can sometimes help a little with the hate directed at me. (If i havent cast Kozilek by turn 2,3 or 4 and started knocking people out of the game yet)Especially if i have Maze of Ith on the field.

Planar portal is actually just broken beyond repair when you have the amount of mana rocks we do with= paradox engine, clock of omens or unwinding clock, or Karn SG With Voltaic construct and any rock that taps for 3 especially with rings of brighthearth.

I have tutored infinite times off of it hundreds of times. and cast my entire library in a turn off of it plenty of times too. (especially with Paradox Engine, which is actually sickeningly powerful in a deck with this many mana rocks.)

Mycosynth lattice has so many combos involved with it in this deck that it isnt even funny. like killing peoples lands, like going crazy with Kozi and Krark clan ironworks. (cough Infinite so easily Cough) and like destroying everyones permanents.

Now Ulamog. hes actually still very good, alot of the time i cast him to exile my own kozilek so i can draw more cards. but he also removes any 2 permanents i dont like or 4 with strionic resonanator or 6 with strionic resonator and rings of Brightenwin. (or infinite when you have infinite mana, infinite untaps, and strionic resonator with rings)

alternatively you can exile 20 cards from their libraries (or 40 see above or 60, see above, or their entire deck) every turn. it builds up and puts the pressure on.

Now i have piloted this deck for years and ive been keeping it updated, but i know every single line of play inside and out. and i can normally with a 4 person pod, win by turn 3 or 4 with a good hand or by turn 5 or 6 with a bad one.

looking at certain cards from the outside doesnt always make sense but when you have played the deck as much as i have you can see why every single card is there.

my only flex spots at the moment are Tower of fortunes. (although its insane card advantage in this specific list)

and temple of the false god. (perhaps for a rishadan port, Mishras workshop, lotus vale, or city of traitors)

Now obviously i would like to have tabernacle and mishras workshop but they are to expensive at the moment and i actually own every card in my list and play it on paper.

Sliver Overlord should change place with Sliver Queen. My reasoning behind this change is that Overlord is more versatile than the other sliver legend. He can grab any sliver you need at that time, need to get agrezsive grab sliver Legion,Fury sliver,or Megantic Sliver. Need to be defensive grab the needed sliver, you get the idea. Lastly Overlords 2nd ability to gain control of a sliver 1:hurts tribal decks that uses changelings and 2: Just icing on the cake.

Sliver Queen is the combo deck, not a sliver deck.

Lol, didn't we cover this already? Sliver Overlord is not as good a commander since all it can do it tutor for your combo piece. Sliver Queen Is that combo piece. The other thing is that the deck Sliver Queen commands only runs maybe two other slivers.

It's that time of the month where we have someone not understand this list and especially Sliver Queen and suggest that Sliver Overlord be moved up for being more versatile or a better sliver commander when Sliver Queen is a combo deck with infinite tokens and other combos. This legit happens about once a month.

seriously, the list description really needs a FAQ section

Hey everyone, so i play ancestral animar as my cEDH and the list shown isn't what i've seen in recent months in terms of a normal list for this deck. Any insight on why the twin deck list is better than a more creature centered combo (which is what i have seen in recent months)? Any decks lists or reasoning would be greatly appreciated, i don't have many animar players to bounce ideas off of at my lgs. Thanks in advance

I would like to (half jokingly) offer my Sidisi, Undead Vizer deck; Sidisi's Sickening Combo to be given the spot of honor as the example deck on this list.

@Andros240

I've also been on the hunt for more current cEDH Animar deck lists, since I don't have access to a local tournament scene at the moment, and would like to know what sort of Animar decks you've seen over the past few months. Searching up lists on Google didn't turn up anything that looked like current brews for multiplayer builds.

The deck list on my account is in serious need of updating to match the changes to my paper version, but if you are just looking for someone to bounce ideas off of then I'm game. I've been playing with Trophy Mage as a way of tutoring for Cloudstone Curio, and it has been working out better than I expected. I also want to see how well Walking Ballista works as a possible kill condition before I commit to buying a copy, so I'd like to hear your opinion on that if you have the time. I'll get around to updating my list sometime soon.

Dunadain, Actually, there was an FAQ written a while back. A lot of peolpe thought it was good idea, but I think it was written at a time when Gigi had a lot going on, so it never got implemented.

<20 Minutes Later>

I dug through the archives and found it:

===panel:FAQ and Common Misconceptions

**FAQ**

_"Why isn't x commander placed higher/lower?_

Check below, in "Commonly Suggested or Questioned Commanders. 9 times out of 10, I've already answered that question. Otherwise, just ask! We're pretty nice here, probably, and will answer your question pretty quickly. 

_"What is the best/worst color/color combination?"_

Generally Blue and Green are the best, with BUG being the best color combination. That's why 5/6 of the BUG generals are either tier 1 or 2. BUG's combination of cheap combo protection, tutors, and ramp makes for ridiculously powerful decks. Additionally, mono-red and RW are pretty bad color combinations. You generally won't see one of them that high up. Mono-white is just awful, with very few redeeming qualities.

_"My question isn't mentioned anywhere!"

Just ask. Seriously, a lot of us are more than willing to help you. Most of us have quite a bit of experience in this format, and odds are, your question will be answered. 

_"Why is the FAQ so small?"

We're still updating it! Ask a question, and if it's common, it'll probably be added to the FAQ!

**Common Misconceptions**

_Hermit Druid is the best deck in the format, and all the other decks are slower._

No. Hermit Druid is a nice deck, but not nearly the best. People learn to kill the Druid, exile it, and there's usually no backup plan if [[Dread Return]] is removed with a timely [[Tormod's Crypt]]. Generally the only other plan is to flashback [[Memory's Journey]], getting [[Pull from Eternity]] and hoping not to die. Generally Food Chain Prossh and Grixis Storm are the fastest decks.

_Voltron decks like [[Rafiq of the Many]] can dominate a table._

The problem with voltron decks is that you have to kill 3 players. Assuming commmander damage, that's 63 life points to kill, while they're all trying to combo off and drop locks. Voltron decks are easy to counter and generally are slower than combo or stax decks.

_x commander that's highly placed will always work in every meta / My meta deck should be tier 1._

It's important to note that every meta is different. Personal builds may be suboptimal based on what your meta is like. For example, in my meta, there's a [[Thraximundar]] deck and a [[Kozilek, Butcher of Truth]] deck. Therefore, I run [[Tajuru Preserver]] to combat those decks. However, in your meta, you likely won't need to fight sacrifice-based decks. Therefore, you won't run that card. Additionally, some decks work better in some metas than others. If a meta is based entirely on boardstate and mono-black decks that have trouble interacting with the stack, maybe Grixis Storm will be nice. If everyone is running spellslinger decks, you might want to bring Ruric Thar. My point is, just because one deck is high up doesn't mean that it'll always work. Remember that metagames must be taken into account before blindly selecting a deck. 

===accordion

===panel:Commonly Suggested or Questioned Commanders

**Introduction**

I made this list and its explanations because people consistently suggest the same commanders over and over, without reading previous explanations. This will clear up uncertainty surrounding seemingly misplaced commanders like Jeleva or Geist.

**Tier One**

[[Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge]]

It's incorrectly assumed that Jeleva is the centerpiece of the deck. Many casual Jeleva decks run expensive spells like [[Enter the Infinite]] to abuse her ability. However, in competitive EDH, Jeleva heads one of the most potent decks around, Grixis Storm. Probably one of the best decks in the format, Grixis Storm is almost unrivaled in speed, and its colors allow for quick turn 3-5 wins off of the busted [[Ad Nauseam]]. When you see Jeleva discussed, just assume that it's Grixis Storm. 

[[Scion of the Ur-Dragon]]

Scion is used as another placeholder for generally any 5c Combo list. This ranges from the famous [[Hermit Druid]] to Flash Rector. Again, the general is rarely cast, and only then as a infinite mana sink with [[Buried Alive]] and [[Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius]].

[[Teferi, Temporal Archmage]]

Teferi is the head of one of the best stax decks in the format. His -1 ability allows you to escape your own locks, and keep opponents suffering through [[Stasis]]. Finally, when your opponents are miserable and you have enough mana, you go infinite with him and [[The Chain Veil]].

**Tier Two**

[[Alesha, Who Smiles at Death]]

Used as a Mardu stax general. The color combination is nice, and she's used because there isn't a better Mardu stax general. 

[[Arcum Dagsson]]

Typically a bogeyman of casual tables, Arcum just isn't that strong anymore. People have learned his [[Myr Turbine]] engine, and due to how slow the deck is, you can see the Lattice + Disk + Forge combo coming from a mile away. A simple [[Praetor's Grasp]] can remove his potency, and any removal against your key pieces is hard to cope with. Additionally, the deck just isn't fast enough for tier 1. 

[[Azami, Lady of Scrolls]]

Azami is another bogeyman of casual tables. She typically is run with a bunch of wizards, and is a hard control deck that wins through [[Mind over Matter]]. However, she suffers from the problem that all control decks have. In a multiplayer format, 1-for-1 counters and removal are inherent card disadvantage. In fact, the term 1-for-1 is a misnomer, as it should be 1-for-1/3. This makes it hard for any control deck to compete, as your card disadvantage is often too much to overcome. Counterspells don't work too well in a place where you have to pick whether you'll counter Yisan's [[Craterhoof Behemoth]], Zur's [[Ad Nauseam]], or Animar's [[Ancestral Statue]]. 

[[Daretti, Scrap Savant]]

Daretti was a commander that was hit _very_ hard by the mulligan change. Since much of red's acceleration is just 1-shot (think [[Rite of Flame]]), the deck relied on Partial Paris to land an early Daretti. Now that Vancouver has taken over the format, the deck can really only get a turn 4 Daretti consistently. The deck liked to run very few lands; that doesn't work too well now. Daretti's just too slow in this format.

[[General Tazri]]

He's the head of a unique 5c [[Food Chain]] deck. The deck runs the [[Food Chain]] + [[Misthollow Griffin]] / [[Eternal Scourge]] combo, then you can sac Tazri to [[Food Chain]] infintely to get something like [[Kalastria Healer]] and make your opponents lose infinite life. It's actually really fast, averaging turn 3-5 wins. He might move up later.

[[Jace, Vryn's Prodigy]]

Mono-blue [[High Tide]]. It's really good. See the decklist in the description for more information.

[[Jhoira of the Ghitu]]

Another bogeyman. The problem with Jhoira is that her ability will get your big spells onto the battlefield at turn 7 on average. By then, faster decks have already won. She's in tier 2 at the time of writing this, but she may move down to tier 3 later.

**[[user:thegigibeast]], if Jhoira moves down, remember to update this.**

[[Kaalia of the Vast]]

While the colors are great for aggro in a 20-life format, this is more of a 120-life format (3 opponents * 40 life each). Aggro decks like Kaalia suffer heavily, and can really only dominate at casual tables lacking in spot removal. In competitive tables, if Kaalia hits the table, you can bet that every [[Beast Within]] and [[Swords to Plowshares]] will be heading her way.

[[Leovold, Emissary of Trest]]

Don't worry, he'll move up soon.

**[[user:thegigibeast]], when Leovold moves up, remember to update this.**

[[Narset, Enlightened Master]]

Similarly to Daretti, Narset was hit pretty hard when the new mulligans were instituted. She has trouble getting out on turn 3 like she used to. While she almost always kills people when she hits, the Vancouver mulligan brought a new "metagame" of midrangey decks like Yisan (<3), which usually run a platoon of creatures that can block and kill Narset.

[[Nin, the Pain Artist]]

Nin's basically the UR artifact combo general until WOTC PRINTS AN ACTUAL UR ARTIFACT COMMANDER. She's used as an infinite mana sink when you combo off. 

[[Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind]]

The combo is kind of expensive, and it's very easy to disrupt. It also has a heavy colored mana cost, so the combo is hard to ramp out early with [[Mana Crypt]] etc.

[[Selvala, Explorer Returned]]

Rienuaa's deck is pretty powerful. Green and White have some of the fastest ramp capabilities in the game, and can quickly tutor and play expensive (but castable in this deck) combos like [[Mirror Entity]] + [[Wirewood Symbiote]] + [[Priest of Titania]], or any big mana engine and [[Umbral Mantle]] / [[Sword of the Paruns]] / [[Staff of Domination]]. (The second one can't be tutored, but is way cheaper.)

[[Sliver Queen]]

Basically the same story as Scion, except instead of [[Buried Alive]] and [[Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius]] you have [[Mana Echoes]] for infinite colorless mana and slivers.

**Tier 3 and below**

[[Geist of Saint Traft]]

While placing high on French tournaments, he's basically useless in multiplayer. He's basically a 6/2 with hexproof for 3. That really doesn't do anything when your opponents have 40 each and a bunch of chump blockers. A better option would be [[Bruna, Light of Alabaster]] who at least can get some interesting synergies with [[Eldrazi Conscription]] and the like.

[[Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon]]

Mono-black isn't a great color combination. Additionally, putting all your eggs in one basket doesn't typically work. Skittles is nice, and can hit an unsuspecting opponent for 4 poison immediately, but the expensive cost coupled with the weakeness of a creature-based strategy that isn't green doesn't make for a happy outcome. It's still fine, and could tear up a few casual tables, but at a higher level, the deck can't hope to compete. 

[[Memnarch]]

Memnarch is another pubstomp commander. He does nothing until you either have a big boardstate or infinite mana. As a control general, you run out of cards way to quickly. As a combo general, [[Jace, Vryn's Prodigy]] is pretty superior. He's just too clunky to compete. 

===endpanel
===endaccordion

===endpanel

Interestingly, Sliver Queen vs. Sliver Overlord isn't really addressed, so that's something we would need to add. (We'd also need to update it to reflect the new tier system, as well.)

TronIsloveTronislife, you wrote a lot in response to me, and I do have some counterarguments, but I think we're probably taking up a lot of space here that could be used by other discussions, so if I type up a response I'll message you directly, sound good?

Also, I realized I accidentally left that new Sidisi list I made as private, which was probably (definitely) why the big deck link wasn't working. If anyone's interested, here it is again:

New Sidisi

Commander / EDH* sonnet666

0 VIEWS

@SaberTech

I have been bouncing off of a couple on here as well as comparing my list to duel commander lists before they changed to 20 life. I think trophy mage is an excellent include, i have been using fabricate and it gives me access to multiple win conditions as i am running walking balista and love it. In my testing balista has been excellent if i cant get through with animar or dont have my purphoros out. It also is a free counter on animar if you need to start getting your combo going. I am also trying rishkar as a way to accelerate my early game seeing as you probably wont attack with animar anyways. Havent seen any interaction with rishkar though so ill update my list and post on how he plays.

How about this:

Sliver Queen and Sliver Overlord

A common misconception is that Sliver Overlord makes a better commander overall than Sliver Queen. The issue is that the best build for Queen is not Sliver tribal. Rather, she's played as a combo deck, using Mana Echoes and a few select other cards to form a compact infinite mana engine as a backup win condition.

"But Overlord can tutor Queen! Clearly it's better!"

The issue here is that to cast Overlord, activate its ability, and cast Queen is unfeasible expensive (, without factoring in other combo pieces), and there really aren't any other Slivers to make Overlord worth using.

That's not a bad description, but you should still acknowledge the Wild Pair combos that Overlord decks typically use since it will inevitably get brought up. Just say that they exist but are not as efficient as just building a deck full of infinite mana combos and using Queen as the outlet.

Yeah, I was around when we had it but it was rather vague. I was thinking about just a collection of arguments that seem to be going in a loop (kalia, voltron builds, General Tazri, and Sliver would be as good a place to start as any)

Here's My submission for a Silas Renn, Seeker Adept list:The Progress Engine

Ok, I changed the commander to Sygg, River Cutthroat, so now it's my entry for a Sygg list.