@NarejED Why Xenagos, God of Revels? His color identity is definitely not ideal (not a lot of EDH calibre removal options in RG). It's weak to blue but there are cards like City of Solitude, Blood Moon and Defense Grid that temper its effectiveness. He's also completely possible to cast him turn 2/3. Depending on how your ramp works out, after Xenagos hits the field all you need is two combat phases and game over. He would definitely have a hard time in a competition fighting against Narset/Zur/Other combo decks but I feel like he could easily hold his own against a multitude of decks in a competitive setting.

Why is Kozilek, the Great Distortion tier 4 while Kozilek, Butcher of Truth tier 3? IMO TGD is either on par if not better than BoT.

Here is why:

1. Fills your hand. Not only does this give you cards to play but also cards to discard for his counter. Typically your throwing down a lot of mana rocks to get to 10 mana, meaning you'll want more than 4 cards.

2. Non-blue counter. Sure eldrazi are expensive and you'd think that would mean you won't match the CMC of your opponents smaller drops. Except you probably have more mana rocks then you know what to do with, and those are usually low- mid drops.

3. Menace and 12/12. Same power as BoT but now it has built in evasion. It gets better if you use Eldrazi Conscription, Hedron Matrix, Akroma's Memorial and/or Loxodon Warhammer.

4. Same CMC. TGD does need 2 colorless mana but if your running an eldrazi as your commander: you'll have plenty.

So as I see it the ONLY advantage BoT has is annihilator, which is an extremely annoying ability. Forcing opponents to sac is convenient, but being able to counter the board wipe/ kill/ Turn to Frog/ Control Magic/ etc. that would make annihilator useless seems to me more useful.

Based on all of that I think they should be the same tier. I could see it being tier 4 because they don't run extremely fast.

That said if anyone has a better argument for or against I'd love to here it!

In regards to Ezuri, I think he should stay right where he is, frankly. An optimized build would likely involve a number of efficient infect creatures (Glistener Elf, Blighted Agent, Inkmoth Nexus), combo pieces (Sage of Hours, perhaps Spike Weaver, if you're feeling cute) enablers (Thassa, God of the Sea, Triumph of the Hordes), and the best control Simic has to offer (Force of Will, Mana Drain, Nature's Claim, Summoner's Pact). The more value-centric builds of him we've seen that run things like Spike Feeder, Gyre Sage and Fathom Mage are more along the lines of tier three, though still at the high end of it, I daresay. As an aside, now the pile of complete and utter jank that is Mindless Automaton at least has a home outside of Shirei decks. Huzzah!

As for Prossh--is his color identity really such a huge reason to move him down to tier two? Between red, black, and green, Jund can destroy any permanent--lands included. Sure, red is weaker than white would be, and you can evidently feel the lack of blue like a gaping hole in your chest with every non-blue commander in this entire game (you're overestimating the importance of the lack of blue, in other words) but he's still very much worthy of tier one, regardless. Oh, and I should mention that I believe that every EDH deck has 'dead draws'--it's an eternal, one hundred card singleton format, contextualized between (usually) four different players. 'Dead draws' are simply in its nature.

Yea, Prossh is staying where he is!!!

@thegigibeast Woop, sorry, didn't see your earlier comment. Apologies.

Is Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician seriously deserving of Tier 4? He can have huge potential with tons of golbin token generators and is just ridiculous with Thieves' Auction (float 7 or more, sac all lands you control, get tons of goblins, then get lands back from thieves auction).

Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician being in mono red hurts. In addition, the power level threshold for Tier 3 was raised when a 4th Tier was added. Ib is for sure in the lower half of the previous version Tier 3, so he was moved down.

NarejED is right on this one. Even if it is a fun commmander, the cards you listed in your argumentation make it even clearer that it should stat tier 4. Also, being mono red hurts a lot, and there are better choices to build a competitive goblin deck.

Feldon of the Third Path to Tier Three, if not Tier Two. Mono-Red hurts, but he has an extremely powerful ability (in a color which gives it a lot of toys), and he's certainly on par with most of the Tier Three guys, and can compete with some of the Tier Two people.

The line between Tier Three and Tier Four just generally looks very iffy. Jalira, Master Polymorphist, Daxos of Meletis, Dromar, the Banisher, General Tazri, Experiment Kraj, Geth, Lord of the Vault, Hazezon Tamar, Karametra, God of Harvests, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Horde of Notions, Hua Tuo, Honored Physician, Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient, Mishra, Artificer Prodigy, Ojutai, Soul of Winter, and Progenitus all feel weak for Tier Three compared to Tier Four cards. Additionally, a number of Tier Three cards could definitely be knocked up to Tier 2 (Karn, Saffi notably).

I don't know what the solution is, but it definitely feels like there should be a clearer line between Tier Three and Tier Four, like there is between 1 and 2 and 2 and 3.

@wordsmith29

Original Kozilek has a more consistent draw ability (lower ceiling, but higher floor as well), can recycle your graveyard when he dies (let him hit the graveyard, trigger his ability, then let him go to the command zone rather than get shuffled in), and has annihilator (HUGE difference over menace). The Disrupting Shoal ability on Great Distortion is neat but not as good as it looks, and it doesn't make up for the massive difference in combat abilities.

Coughs. Like not having a sixth Tier. Coughs.

I think Karn and Saffi were both covered previously in the discussion. Karn is essentially an overcosted Sydri, Galvanic Genius without access to a decent color identity. There's at least a full tier gap between them. Saffi isn't consistent enough. As for Feldon of the Third Path, I can see how his ability could be incredibly powerful, but alas, I haven't run across a competitively built deck list that demonstrates his brokenness yet. Could you possibly link an optimized build for him?

So I had a thought.. I was looking at the mtgtop8 for commander and thought it was interesting that in quite a few instances our list does not reflect the top8 standing. For example Anafenza, the Foremost just got bumped to tier 3 however she's the third most popular aggro general, Tasigur, the Golden Fang is the most popular control commander, Geist of Saint Traft is the fifth most popular (and is currently tier 5 on this list). There are plenty of other examples but I'm curious to hear thoughts on the discrepancy. I'm not suggesting we change it I just found it amusing and was curious to hear thoughts..

Also NarejED I'm curious as to your reasons for why suggesting the demotion of Xenagos, God of Revels? His color identity is definitely not ideal (not a lot of EDH calibre removal options in RG). It's weak to blue but there are cards like City of Solitude, Blood Moon and Defense Grid that temper its effectiveness. He's also completely possible to cast him turn 2/3. Depending on how your ramp works out, after Xenagos hits the field all you need is two combat phases and game over. He would definitely have a hard time in a competition fighting against Narset/Zur/Other combo decks but I feel like he could easily hold his own against a multitude of other decks in a competitive setting.

irisfibers, popularity rarely reflects actual value. iPhones somehow have a ridiculous amount of market share and they're seriously shoddily made :P (Never seen an iPhone without a cracked screen in my life)

I can see Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Anafenza, the Foremost contesting the higher tiers, but there's no way Geist of Saint Traft would be higher than tier 4 at the highest. In multiplayer, Geist just doesn't make an impact for long enough. In the late-game, Geist is seriously ineffective.

@irisfibers This was discussed in the previous thread (since deleted), so I'll try and distill it the best I can. MTGtop8 focuses on 1 vs. 1 results, this ranking is designed to reflect performance in 3+ player pods. Of course Geist will rank highly in 1v1, he's difficult to deal with for one opponent. But Geist can't effectively deal with multiple opponents, and as a result is awful in multiplayer pods.

Anafenza has a similar problem in that she's an efficient beatstick in a good color combo in 1v1 but in a bigger group has less overall utility, making her much worse than Karador, Ghave, and Teneb.

Tasigur is the strongest of the group but again has a similar issue in that against one player it's hard to stop him when he combos off, but in bigger pods Tasigur's shenanigans have a higher chance of being interrupted whereas Damia is more versatile.

As for Xenagod, he's a powerful card in a vacuum but relying on a combat step is an awkward place to be. Plenty of good fatties in those colors that he can combo with, but there are also plenty of ways in the format to disrupt that gameplan. Weak overall color combo doesn't help either.

To be honest, I wouldn't be sure where to look for that XD. But even without a list, are you seriously telling me he's weaker than something like Jazal Goldmane or Jalira, Master Polymorphist, who are both mono-colored, more expensive, and have weaker abilities? He also looks stronger than quite a few other choices on the 3 list.

@yavimaya_eldred Honestly forgot about his graveyard bit. But I still don't see why they aren't on the same tier. They have the same speed and the eldrazi decks I've seen usually switch between TGD and BoT on a whim.

The main problem with Xenagod is that his strategy justisn't effective at competitive levels of play. He essentially focuses punching opponents as hard as he can with large creatures. Single-target combat shenanigans aren't extremely powerful in higher levels of multiplayer play (notice how there are only two true voltron commanders in Tier 2 currently).

Furthermore, Xenagod's speed isn't really fast enough to merit Tier 2 play. He usually takes 2+ turns after resolution to kill one opponent, and additional 2+ to kill the other two in a four player pod, even when he's goldfishing. This puts him in the 7+ turn range; below the usual threshold for Tier 2 aggro/combo decks.

On top of his lack of speed, he does very poorly against the most common archetypes at higher levels of play. He runs out of steam to control builds, he has difficulty playing around stax builds, and combo builds completely and utterly wreck him, since he has little to no way of interacting with them. One might argue that this is irrelevant, but keep in mind that, until recently, one of the biggest criteria that new Modern decks were judged by was "How well does this do against Splinter Twin?" Effectiveness against meta can be surprisingly important, even in multiplayer EDH.

Also, regarding the comparison of Xenagod to Jazal Goldmane: Jazal actually goldfishes wins about 1 turn earlier than Xenagod using a very similar strategy.

Kozilek, Butcher of Truth is T3 if just for this build: Y U No Play Color?!?!?, and yes, the annihilator matters here.

Optimized Feldon:Feldon of the Third Path copy

I copied it from a source I respect, did a little tinkering and some goldfishing. It has some powerful synergies and is decently reactive for mono-red. In casual metas I think he will probably do very well (For instance, Wurmcoil Engine on Blade of Selves with sac outlets is nothing to sneeze at.), and that is the rubric behind Tier 3. Mono-red is limiting, yes, but the deck has very good draw power and board control for both artifacts and creatures, and if Purphoros, Krenko, and Daretti can all manage to be T2, I see no reason why Feldon can't make T3.

FAMOUSWATERMELON: I agree with you that the line between Tiers 3 and 4 is a bit fuzzy and needs work, but I think for a lot of the commanders you listed there you might just not be aware of their full potential. Let me give you some examples:

Jalira, Master Polymorphist lets you run a deck filled with low cost legendary utility creatures, and then swap them out for one or two extremely powerful non-legendary creatures. (i.e. turn five Blightsteel Colossus, every game.) It's as powerful as decks that used to run just one creature in the 99 so they could Proteus Staff their commander into it, without actually having to set up your deck that way (or find Proteus Staff).

General Tazri is a five color ally commander. There are actually a lot of allies that scale well to commander (Sea Gate Loremaster, Bala Ged Thief, Murasa Pyromancer) as well as a lot of super amazing blink engines that dial their triggers up to 11 (Brago, King Eternal, Ghostway, Planar Guide). Plus, she has a dedicated infinite combo (Xenograft/Conspiracy + Turntimber Ranger), and she's a tutor in the command zone. Honestly, I feel like once someone works out all the kinks we might see a version of this deck make it to Tier 2.

Geth, Lord of the Vault is continuous card advantage on a stick. Once he's out there is literally nothing better to do with your mana than dump it into his ability repeatedly, which means that when the inevitable field wipe rolls around you'll still have a hand full of gas to trash your opponents with. Also, mono-black can generate enormous amounts of mana off of very few cards.

Karametra, God of Harvests ramps harder than any other green/white commander, does it without spending other cards to do so (you were gonna cast creatures anyway), and has some great landfall triggers in her colors. Seems T3 to me.

Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker has multiple infinite combos centered around him and abuses ETB, death, and combat triggers. If he doesn't make it to T3 there is absolutely no way that Feldon does, and I at least think they're both worthy.

Horde of Notions is a five color recursion engine. I don't see why everyone rates him so low. It's five color, You don't have to limit yourself the elemental tribal. Just do the usual five color thing and play the best ones available to you (e.g. Avenger of Zendikar).

Mishra, Artificer Prodigy makes a weird artifact based stax / combo deck with cards like Blood Funnel and Nether Void. I feel like the uniqueness of that alone is worth putting him in T3, but the deck actually performs pretty consistently, and he's not weaker than most other T3 generals.

Lastly, I think you're probably right about Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient needing to be moved to T4, but it's worth mentioning how he's able to generate stupid amounts of mana very early in the game using cards like Basalt Monolith, Grim Monolith, and Voltaic Key.

Jazzyboy, Now you've seen one. Take special note of the lack of screen protector and the $3 case. Also .

NarejED, We're still on this tier system debate? Jeez, I feel like if this were Congress you be the Frankie Peanuts and I'd be the Assquatches.

Yep, I'm just stubborn like that. Didn't help that we had a vote and the Five-Tier system actually won.

Well, the UK has votes and the Tories win somehow. Doesn't mean that's the right decision. It just means the majority are too stubborn to accept the facts.(the Tories are corrupt and tyrannical. Oh and more relevantly, the six tier system is simply better than the five tier system and I haven't seen any good arguments to prove otherwise)

wordsmith29: Menace is not real evasion and isn't even comparable to something like Flying or just plain unblockable. Against any deck that's at all creature-heavy, it's completely useless on only one creature.

Annihilator on the other hand cuts down your opponent's board whenever Kozilek, Butcher of Truth attacks, regardless of whether he hits. It may be annoying for everyone else, but it's 'annoying' because it's so powerful. Against some commanders, Annihilator can be absolutely devastating to them.

I think you mean the five tier system is simply better than the six tier system, and you haven't seen any good arguments to prove otherwise. xD

sonnet666 That list of cards isn't based on their own power, rather their power compared to other Tier 4 commanders. For instance:

General Tazri does not make a more powerful commander deck than Sliver Legion. Yes, he tutors, but the Legion gives a more powerful permanent boost, is a 7/7 to being with, and generally speaking Slivers are a more powerful tribe than Allies. Slivers also have plenty of infinite combos, so that's not a problem. And yet, they are in two different tiers.

Jalira, Master Polymorphist I feel is very close to Feldon, actually. They both are mono-colored, both have a tap ability, and both require a set up to use that ability well. However, while Jalira is blue, Feldon is quicker and doesn't rely on chance to use his ability. They feel like very much around the same level, yet are separated by a tier.

Geth, Lord of the Vault can be fairly compared to something like Erebos, God of the Dead. They both have outlets for lots of mana, but Geth relies on other people's decks to do well (which is not a great strategy most of the time), costs more, isn't indestructible, and doesn't have the added bonus of shutting down Oloro or things like that. He may mill, but I think we can agree that's not a great strategy in EDH either.

Karametra, God of Harvests is one of the stronger ones I named, but even here, she doesn't necessarily seem much better than Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger or others. The multi-color helps, of course, but...

Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is very similar to Feldon. You already pointed that out, I don't see why their tiers should differ.

Yes, Horde of Notions can recur Avenger of Zendikar and one or two other decent elementals. But if you're playing him for the colors, he shouldn't be anywhere near Tier 3. What you're describing sounds much more like Tiers 4 or 5 to me.

Mishra, Artificer Prodigy does make some fun combos... but you have to get those cards. And without that, he's more or less vanilla.

All of this to point out that there is a very small difference between Tier 3 and 4. In fact, looking at the cards in Tier 4, it just looks like all the cards were borderline between 3 and 5 and that people just didn't want to sort. I mean, are we really putting Ashling the Pilgrim and Blind Seer in the same tiers as Feldon and Dragonlord Dromoka (which is basically a GW version of Sen Triplets, and should probably be moved up too)?

Dragonlord Dromoka is not at all a GW version of Sen Triplets. If you're seriously comparing 'your opponents can't cast spells during your turn ' to 'At the beginning of your upkeep, choose target opponent. This turn, that player can't cast spells or activate abilities and plays with his or her hand revealed. You may play cards from that player's hand this turn', then saying that you're drastically oversimplifying things would be a gross understatement. That said, while she certainly isn't Gaddock Teeg, she's still much better than most of the mediocrity to be found in tier four. Perhaps she's worthy of a tier three placement, then, but I wouldn't exactly say that she'd be dominating the rest of the competition, in that regard.

I mean, competitively, the strength of the Triplets is shutting down any form of interaction during your turn. Dromoka does that for everyone. The cast from your hand effect isn't so great, so what really makes them a bit better than Dromoka is the color combination. Dromoka does have a big body though, which certainly helps.

I'm pretty sure it's also worth noting that they additionally makes the chosen opponent unable to activate abilities and also makes them play with their hands revealed. Sure, being able to play cards with from their hand isn't much from a competitive standpoint, but it's an upside that you can't just ignore.