Fair enough. I do realize there are 100+ commanders in Tier 3 but seeing as there were some decks already listed in the "Tier 3 Lists" I was just curious if that was something that was being worked on or if it was just a side project with no eventual complete date.

GardenGnome, the Sram deck that is up there right now already plays almost exactly the same, and while I think your inclusion of stax elements to the deck does improve it, it still doesn't change how the deck is super vulnerable to any sort of control, and how the deck is 99% reliant on its commander (Puresteel Paladin is untutorable).

Mono-white is just a terrible color identity, and even if Sram mitigates its main weakness well (not being able to draw cards), he still does it at the expense of at least 35% of your deck being devoted to cards that are otherwise dead at all other times.

He's should stay in tier 3.

Also, after playtesting your list a little, It seems to me that you inclusion of other elements might have hurt the list a little. You still haven't solved the problem of "if you don't draw into Puresteel, you can't chain equipment forever." I just started cycling on turn three with 8 mana off of Metalworker, but I couldn't keep going after just 3 equipments, despite hitting an Enlightened Tutor. If you don't include an extra draw engine like Memory Jar, Alhammarret's Archive, or Kuldotha Forgemaster, Then Sram is giving you a net 0 in card advantage, and you're basically guaranteed to run out of steam if you don't get Puresteel. The more equipments you cut for stax elements the more you increase that likelihood.

sonnet666 Thank you for your input and suggestions on cards to help improve the deck!

I understand that while it is a one trick pony that is easily disrupted I believe this deck has the potential to do so at level of speed and consistency that would warrant it potentially a higher placing. By no means is my list optimized and still has plenty of room for improvement.

I could also very well be wrong and am simply too deep down the rabbit hole to see the other side and the requirement to run so many equipment will forever weigh this deck down in the tier 3 slums. I simply don't know. Which is why I decided to share my idea and see what everyone else thinks of it along with make whatever improvements I was simply unable to notice on my own.

The links for decks: Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, Narset, Enlightened Master, Mizzix of the Izmagnus, Shu Yun, Silent Tempest, Surrak Dragonclaw are broken.

So, you said we can comment if we think a commander has been placed in the wrong tier, and I would argue that Niv-Mizzet, Dracogenius should be tier 3. First of all, he's a 5/5 flier, so killing someone with commander damage is entirely possible. Additionally, because of the card advantage he grants, you will pretty much always have a full hand. And, while unlike with Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, he does not make a 2 card infinite combo, should you make an infinite mana combo, of which there are several in UR, you can do infinite damage without decking yourself because his ability is optional.

A_Because, i would argue against that. I ran niv mizzet firemind for a very long time, and fully agree with where he was placed. Dracogenius, however, while i ran in the deck, was very underperforming and with dracogenius, your deck is almost entirely focused on using your commander. While the same argument CAN be used for firemind, he is still strictly better due to needing no mana to use his ability and his ability is straight up draw a card. Dracogenius needs to hit a player to draw, which is strictly worse than just tap to draw. All in all i believe that tier 4 is the correct placement due to the fact that if you want to activate him right away, and if you had no ramp, it would take 8 mana, whereas firemind is still only 6 (lightning greaves is needed, grant it, but still happens 2 turns sooner netting you 2 extra cards, and still not needing a mana activation)

n0bunga just to sort of correct a few of the reasons why a few of the Tier 1 commanders are where they are, SBT and Tazri are both there because of their ability to turn Eternal Scourge + Food Chain into a 2 card way to find your wincon. In the case of Tazri, he lets you find one the Allies who will either mill or damage all your opponents and then using Food Chain you can get infinite Ally ETB triggers to win. For SBT, you use her as essentially a tutor to get Walking Ballista into your hand via Dread Return + Eternal Witness and then win with Ballista + infinite creature mana.

It's more than that the commanders provide something to do in addition to their color ID, it's that they provide the means to win the game

Athraithe I would never argue that Firemind should stop being Tier 2, but I will entirely disagree with you saying that Dracogenius is entirely focused on using him. In fact, in my experience, he's more there to just to support your other strategies by drawing you into them and existing as a blocker. Now, I will not disagree that it is cheaper to cast and tap Firemind, but unless you are running a Paradox Engine or something similar, you can only activate his ability once per turn, while you can activate Dracogenius' ability multiple times a turn cycle. I won't disagree with your analysis on him requiring more mana, though. Really, I just suggested this based on my experience in a playgroup that runs a lot of Tier 3 commanders, but if other people disagree with me, I won't argue it too much.

n0bunga "SBT - Made even more menacing with AKH's new zombies, but makes use of her Token Gen"

Not really... The zombies of AKH don't have an effect on the deck and her token generation is just sort of... extra. It doesn't actually help you achieve your win condition

Let me just say, I think my [[Primer v2.5]] - OM_RATH!!! (EMN Update!!!) decklist should push Omnath, Locus of Rage a bit on the tier list!

VexenX - We discussed your list about four months ago (look in the comment archive on page 173). The things that stood out to us the most were the high mana curve, the lack of fast mana artifacts like Mana Crypt, and the lack of interaction.

Didn't see the comments, I was never tagged. I just went back and read them and thought they were kind of funny to be honest. I am guessing none of them played against a good Omnath deck. This is honestly the first time my decks power had been put into question.

Just so there is no confusion for p0megranates, I own the deck exactly as posted. I have even scanned copies of my altered art card to the list. I pride myself very much in this deck, I even got my hands on a foil Gaea's Cradle before the price spiked. If you want to play against it in person, I'll be at the GP Vegas this year.

I don't play artifact ramp because the deck profits from land ramp during every stage of the game. Sure Mana Crypt would be good, but I didn't realize every deck required one to be good.. Lol. Playing mana dorks in Omnath, Locus of Rage is a joke. I don't know why that list is even viable.

I didn't realize a curve of 3.8 was greedy in commander. I am about to remove World Breaker for Nature's Lore here soon. Also, Blasphemous Act kinda messes with my curve avg a bit (it is cmc 1 pretty much all the time). Akroma's Memorial, Stalking Vengeance, and Avenger of Zendikar might be worth removing if you care about cmc avg.

Gates88 Omnath interacts a ton. Just read the card itself. Also, I win way more from cards like Warstorm Surge/Purphoros, God of the Forge and sack outlets then I do with Craterhoof Behemoth and swinging in. I am sure your take on Omnath would work just fine, but it does not mean mine is not viable. This deck is honestly the most consistent edh deck I have seen. Play Land = win... Seems good.

Because the deck is centered around Omnath, getting him out as fast as possible is important. Mana Crypt and Mana Vault help with that. Mana dorks also help with that. Being able to drop ramp for 1 instead of 2 mana brings you closer to Omnath a turn sooner than land-based ramp. Take a look at the deck I designed based off of your deck. It can consistently get Omnath out turn 3-4, without issues.

Most competitive EDH decks have an average CMC of 3 or less. This is because the format can be/is significantly faster than what most people expect. While average CMC is not the end-all-be-all, it is usually a good indicator of how tuned a deck is. For the high CMC cards you mentioned, if you can justify their inclusion in the deck, no one would have a problem with them. Usually, having a plethora of high drops that cannot be cheated into play results in dead draws, something competitive EDH decks try to avoid at all costs.

The criticism about interaction was more about the lack of interaction with NON-creatures. Short of Wheel of Fortune, World Breaker, and Strip Mine, your deck cannot interact with hands, spell, nor non-creature permanents. There were suggestions about Blood Moon and Null Rod as potential ways to interact with opponents. As Omnath usually has a damage-based win, be it combat or direct, you still need to deal 120 damage (in a 4-man pod), which will take a while for almost any deck not planning to go arbitrarily large.

Oh yeah, Omnath is real interactive. I'm sure you can do really well against Selvala HOTW, Prossh, Tazri, Zur, Yidris, Jeleva, or The Gitrog Monster with your list.

Omnath is pubstomp tier, he's always been pubstomp tier, and he's probably always going to be pubstomp tier. Tier 3 is for pubstomp decks, so Omnath is exactly where he should be.

Please do not respond to posts from several months ago. The people who posted them no longer care about whatever topics they were about.

@VexenX: Your list is fine for the typical casual table, and it looks like tons of fun to play. Also, it would get completely annihilated at a competitive table. Sorry.

ALSO, if you don't realize that Mana Crypt is autoinclude in 100% of EDH decks, then I dunno what else to tell you.

I have a good idea, and I think going forward we should institute this for people advocating for their own decks: Instead of telling us why your list is good in a vacuum, tell us why some of the tier 2-3 lists here wouldn't be able to beat your Omnath deck.

Yeah pretty much tier 1-2 combo deck can fairly consistently win before Omnath hits the table and red green lacks appropriate answers to those decks especially since omrath doesn't want to go the ruric thar route and fill the deck with hate pieces. If omnath was a 5 drop then perhaps tier 2 would be a possibility but yeah omnath is nowhere near competitive in any measurable dimension. I would imagine omnath can probably win at turn 4-5 at the same rate SBT or Thrasios can win on turn 2-3.

Still on the fence about a stax deck to play, I'm currently bouncing between Thar and GAAIV

Opinions? (I'd prefer something that isn't Brago where you make everyone lose all their permanents. These ARE my friends here lol.)

Hey guyz! A friend of mine noticed me that our list has been showcased in episode 158 of The Command Zone, just wanted to shar this with you ;)

link to video

@Ohthenoises Obviously Thar. Not Gruul? Then die.

looking for help with my Kambal, Consul of Allocation deck I has a funny name. Looking to replace the teysa card and improve the deck. Would also like to know what you all think the tier for my deck might be? im thinking its still around tier 3 but would like cEDH opinions as well

i don't get it why is Tazri tier 1?

firecast92 Food Chain.

Athraithe, This list is for ranking commanders based off of the best possible deck that can be made for them, not ranking individual people's decklists. While we do sometimes critique decklists here, it's usually to discuss whether that list is the "best" representation of that commander's abilities, not to improve the decklist for that person.

If you're looking for help improving your deck, I suggest making a thread over in the "Commander Deck Help" section of the forums. You'll get more focused help there than you will in this comment stream.

As far as improving your list, some general advice for taking it competitive would be to cut down your mana curve (like, way down); figure out what your main strategy is, then cut all cards that don't contribute to that strategy or do so inefficiently; and finally to include all the best acceleration and tutors available to you, since they're the most efficient and ubiquitous cards in the format. (As far as optimized decklists for this page go, price is no issue. We don't expect anyone submitting a decklist to actually own or play their list in real life.)

Also, I see in your description that you want to keep your deck at a none competitive level. That's totally your prerogative, and there's nothing wrong with it, but the discussion here is really more devoted to the competitive aspects of Commander, so again, probably not the best place for you to look for help.

Good luck.

Personaly I think Ghoulcaller Gisa should be tier one. With her ability, some reanimation, and creatures that keep coming back, its easy to get over 20 tokens out by turn 10.

HawksFanatic i dont think thats justification for tier 1. T1 teferi stax can have rift mana open by turn 3 (sometimes turn 2), so the tokens will just die anyways. Zur will have rest in peace, which kills graveyard stuff. Shes kinda tier 4 for a reason, although tier 3 might be a viable spot if you can build something better than the tier 4 deck thats listed.